Ok, so the whole age of logic thing.

[SouthPaw]

AmyDoll said in a non-related thread it was 14? Is that right? What exactly does that mean? I remember solving "logic problems" when I was in jr. high and actually wrote one in math class at age 7 or 8 that WAS logical but the teacher couldn't figure it out until i showed her :lol and she was amazed at the logical steps in it that she hadn't even considered (since we were 7 or 8, not because she was stupid), and when I was 10 I started reading adult level books w/ all the twisty plots and politics and stuff and I always got it. Is that not the same thing? :O Can I be enlightened? :grin

[BHope]

:popcorn

[SouthPaw]

oh yeah, and i decided who i was going to marry when i was 13. no wait, that's not the best example of logical thinking i guess :doh :giggle

[Hermana Linda]

I'm sure that the age of logic would vary by person, each person being unique and all. It sounds like you were on the very high end of the curve. :yes Of course, I'm no expert. :shrug

[Herbwifemama]

I always thought the age of logic began at 7- it's a process- but then, I'm not very logical even today, so maybe I better just lurk. :) (Oh wait, maybe that's the age of reason? What's the difference between logic and reasoning?)

[ReedleBeetle]

DH and I were talking about this the other day, and neither of us get it. Crystal???

[Hermana Linda]

I always thought the age of logic began at 7- ... (Oh wait, maybe that's the age of reason? What's the difference between logic and reasoning?)


Hey... yeah. :scratch

[LittleSweetPeas]

Hmmm. I know in the classical education approach the trivium is split up like this:

Grammar Stage (memorization): K-6
Logic (ordering facts into organized statements and arguments): 7-8
Rhetoric (communicating well): 9-12

Most kids seem to have logic kicking in for them around the preteen years. This is when you can start giving them more choices and also when they start to fight you more.

I have always heard age of reason related to Belief to be at age 7. I have no idea who chose it!

[ArmsOfLove]

actually, you're all very close :giggle

According to Classical Education research and brain study stuff I've read pre-logic begins as early as 8, logic begins at 10, reason begins at 14 and is pretty fully developed between 18 and 20, the brain is finished developing at 21 :tu

The grammar (pre-logic) stage is for absorbing facts but not really making sense of them; logic is "if, then" thinking. This means that pre-logic/grammar they can memorize the pharoahs or the presidents or the commandments; with logic they will begin to understand "if you break a commandment, this is what will happen." This is why I say that logical consequences are appropriate (if they fit the criteria of solultions) for the older child who has developed logic. Prior to that it's really just mean because they don't make the connection the way adults think they will--the lesson isn't about behavior, its about not getting caught. Reason is the ability to think about things and decide your own opinion about it. So, the grammar aged child can memorize the Presidents; the child with logic and study each President and see that this issue led to this action and that led to the country then electing this person, etc. The child with Reason can decide what he thinks about each of these things and form his own political views and decide who he would have voted for under similar conditions.

[mommylove]

actually, you're all very close :giggle

According to Classical Education research and brain study stuff I've read pre-logic begins as early as 8, logic begins at 10, reason begins at 14 and is pretty fully developed between 18 and 20, the brain is finished developing at 21 :tu

The grammar (pre-logic) stage is for absorbing facts but not really making sense of them; logic is "if, then" thinking. This means that pre-logic/grammar they can memorize the pharoahs or the presidents or the commandments; with logic they will begin to understand "if you break a commandment, this is what will happen." This is why I say that logical consequences are appropriate (if they fit the criteria of solultions) for the older child who has developed logic. Prior to that it's really just mean because they don't make the connection the way adults think they will--the lesson isn't about behavior, its about not getting caught. Reason is the ability to think about things and decide your own opinion about it. So, the grammar aged child can memorize the Presidents; the child with logic and study each President and see that this issue led to this action and that led to the country then electing this person, etc. The child with Reason can decide what he thinks about each of these things and form his own political views and decide who he would have voted for under similar conditions.




Thank you -- this is very helpful. Ok, so practical application . . .

Does this mean that natural consequences shouldn't be used until the child is 8-10?

Obviously, I'm very new to GBD . . . and parenting in general. :giggle

How does one know what's age-appropriate for a child to understand? A friend insists that my 12-mo. old DS understands way more than I give him credit for and that by being so lax with him, I'm starting down the path to being too permissive. :think

[ArmsOfLove]

well I'd need more details before deeming someone permissive ;)

But the way I look at consequences for children younger than 8 is this . . . I use my age and experience to determine the potential natural consequences and then decide if the child is mature enough to survive and learn from the experience. There will be an ever growing number of natural consequences they are ready to experience as they get older and I want to give them more responsibility in direct proportion :)

This doesn't exclude direct cause and effect or boundary setting choices. If you are rude to me I will walk away; if you try to hurt me I will not let you; Big feelings can go to your room if you are hysterical after comforting and empathy.

[SouthPaw]

This doesn't exclude direct cause and effect or boundary setting choices.

ok, so the kid can learn "i throw toy, toy goes away" when they are little

but couldn't understand something like "i threw the toy, it broke, so i shouldn't throw toys because they might break" until older?

or something? can you give a couple of examples like that (except better :giggle )

[ArmsOfLove]

the child can get "I threw toy and the toy went away" but he can't be expected to *anticipate* each time "if I throw this, it will go away" without at least a reminder :) AND he won't necessarily be able to transfer that to anything else. For example, he won't assume "if I throw food it will go away too"

[thomer]

Very interesting. :popcorn

[mommylove]

well I'd need more details before deeming someone permissive ;)

But the way I look at consequences for children younger than 8 is this . . . I use my age and experience to determine the potential natural consequences and then decide if the child is mature enough to survive and learn from the experience. There will be an ever growing number of natural consequences they are ready to experience as they get older and I want to give them more responsibility in direct proportion :)

This doesn't exclude direct cause and effect or boundary setting choices. If you are rude to me I will walk away; if you try to hurt me I will not let you; Big feelings can go to your room if you are hysterical after comforting and empathy.



This is a really good conversation. Thank you. I'm really struggling with this right now, so I really appreciate your insight. When my friend says that I'm heading down the road of permissiveness, my lack of showing authority is what she's judging. Here's an example:

My very active DS (12 months old) wants to be a part of whatever I'm doing, or likes to be the center of my attention, or something. I have a hard time figuring out how to shower & appease him at the same time. The other day, I remembered the pack & play & set it up in the doorway so we could still converse, etc. The entire time, he screamed like he was being murdered. The same thing happened today when I put him in there so DH & I could fold the mountain of laundry on the bed. DH was standing 2 feet from DS, and we were talking with him. Up until I tried this, I've been letting him get his way, which is always inconvenient. Often times I don't get things done, don't get to shower, don't take the time to eat "real" food during the day, etc. In the kitchen, the only way I can get things done is by wearing him on my back. He's clearly in control -- not me. And I don't know what to do about it. Part of me thinks that it's ok because he's so young, but people tell me that he's manipulating me & by not setting a standard now, he'll expect to demand his way on all issues.

So I guess I don't know how to set boundaries when I cannot have a conversation with him. But really, I don't know what expectations are age-appropriate for his stage of life.

We co-sleep, so I'm not used to CIO. He seems to have figured out that by throwing a tantrum, Mom (usually) responds. So if responding to his tantrum is wrong, how does that differ from CIO?

I know I'm really opening a can of worms, and the best reply might bee too long, so even a book recommendation geared toward this age group would be helpful.

DH & I read Biblical Parenting, btw, and felt we got a lot of value from it. Thank you.

[ReedleBeetle]

:hug2 This is a hard age. You could read Ames and Illges (I think that is it) "Your 1 Year Old". They are great on age appropriate behavior, but the discipline stuff is not so great. You should be able to get it at your local library. Also, at this age, I showered if my DH was home and up, put DS in the shower with me, after he went to bed for the night, or brought his highchair in the bathroom and gave him cheerios or something to eat. The only way I would shower if he was upset about it, was if DH was home or after he went to sleep.I have gone a few days without a shower because he just couldn't deal. Meals have always been, as long as I get one decent meal and can snack the rest of the day, I am ok. We did a lot of finger foods for him, so he could sit in his highchair and do that while I ate. My house was a lot messier than I prefered and is just starting to get a little better the last couple of months. It goes fast, and in the end, you won't wish you had cleaned more, but you will wish you had been there for him more.

[BHope]

He's clearly in control -- not me.

At 12 months old he doesn't have a clue what control is. Until the age of 3-ish most children cannot differentiate between need and want. A child that young can literally believe that his LIFE is contingent on fullfilling a given moment's desire/need/want... So big reactions in a 12 month old is fairly normal.

If anything I'd say he feels very much OUT of control.

My suggestion would be to start thinking outside of the box with regards to how you respond to him and still have YOUR needs met. Bring him into the bath with you. Allow him to entertain himself in a high chair with wooden spoons while you cook dinner. Or do like you've done, and sling him. Fold laundry while he naps or goes down for the night. OR, set him in a basket of socks and allow him to "help" while you take care of the big things. I do clean laundry folding on the floor so that DD2 doesn't feel seperated from me. Instead she plays next to me as I work. Usually this means that it takes twice the time. But at least I'm getting done what needs to be done and she feels secure and a part of the household.

My other suggestion would be to respond to him before big feelings happen. (What others might call a "tantrum.") Talk to him, use reflective listening.

Just now DD2 (18 months) dumped an entire container of salt on my floor. I thought she was playing at my feet with a bag of little peoples. :doh She was VERY upset when I swept up the salt and threw it away. After all, she'd been having LOADS of fun! I swept up the salt, talked to her about how much fun she'd had, but that salt was "not for baby." Redirected her to her little peoples, and then when she didn't want to have any of that. I just cuddled her and let her be upset for a few minutes in my arms. When she calmed down a bit, I changed the subject and asked her about the little peoples again. We cuddled, and a few seconds later she wanted down so that she could play with a ball she spotted in the corner.

All told, it was a small portion of my day. ;)

She got to have big feelings. But my boundary didn't change.

That doesn't mean that she now knows that salt is "off limits." She just is too young to put that together. :shrug

[SouthPaw]

Reason is the ability to think about things and decide your own opinion about it.

:idea

this is why it's so important to guard against peer pressure isn't it? i mean, that's probably a "duh" statement. but when a kid *without* reason is around all these other kids with all the ideas they have been taught, if they haven't been "immunized" against these ideas by conscientious parents... :think :doh (ok, score 1 for homeschooling :shifty )