I need to say a few things about the idea of defiance

[ArmsOfLove]

Because this seems to be a sticking point for some moms here, especially new moms learning more about GBD. I said in another thread that defiance means they want something at least as much as you do. That's it in a nutshell. But there's more :)

I want to explain why I believe the idea of "defiance" or "willfull defiance" is so big a deal in the parenting world and why it's not even an issue in my home.

Here's the thing--inherently we know that punishments aren't fair or kind. We know that they shouldn't be given for accidents. And parents often feel badly about giving them. So the punitive community has distilled things down to punishments being needed for defiance, especially willfull defiance (the worst kind of defiance :shifty). And defiance is basically expressed as "not an accident", "the child knew what they were doing", "I'd already told them and they understood", or "They know." But this is a LOT to assume of a toddler! Developmentally they lack all logic--they are not thinking about things the way you are, they have poor impulse control, little self control, and are driven less by will and more by whim. ;)

Ironically, some of the most punitive parents I know are the best at making excuses for their children--they really don't want to spank or punish so they can warp reality so that everything is an accident. This means they don't have to spank for this thing. One of the most punitive parents I've known would apologize for her child's elbow accidentally slamming into my child's head while her child ran past him at park speeds and veered acrsoss to room to slam into him while my child sat on the floor playing with legos :no But if it's defiance/willfull defiance then you aren't allowed to make excuses for those things. They *need* a punishment.

As far as I'm concerned, I could honestly care less if something is defiance or willfull defiance or ignorance or an accident or sleepwalking :shifty I respond the same way. I don't have to play the game of discerning intent, I assign a positive one because it makes my life more pleasant. And if I see over time that there is some kind of maturity or character issue then I address it during character training. We might read verses and talk about issues and read Aesop's fables or fairy tales with morals, etc. IOW, I *disciple* them in that area. But as far as the action in question goes, if my child spills their bowl of cereal then whether it's done out of anger that I won't give them a cookie, because they were done, or because it slipped, I say, "Uh Oh! Food does not belong on the floor. Here, take this towel and help mommy clean it up." They made a mess, they are going to help clean it up. If they are too upset then I will stop and comfort them and then we will clean it up. :shrug

So GBD can be both harder and easier than punishing. Harder, because you need to be creative and tuned in and learn how to work with your child. Easier because you don't have to try and be a mind or heart reader.:heart

[chelsea]

Thanks, that has cleared up a lot of confusion for me. :grin This part stuck out especially:
As far as I'm concerned, I could honestly care less if something is defiance or willfull defiance or ignorance or an accident or sleepwalking I respond the same way.
I was thinking that to "teach" a child to respond more appropriately, you needed to discern their intent. This gives me a new angle on how I think about things.

[Embracing Grace]

This was very helpful, thanks! :heart

[pneumaphile]

Excellent post Crystal. I always enjoy the way you can distill an issue into something clear and easy to think through. Thank you.

[akmyilee]

Thanks, this has been coming up a lot for me lately because they just did a Dobson study at our church.........I really needed that clarification and reminder.

in the instance of the spilled cereal..........I would have thought the examples that you gave would not have been defiance either. BUT what about when I say "your cereal bowl goes on the table" and the child (now I am not meaning a toddler, like my 4yo) picks up the bowl and dumps it out on the floor..........what then? I mean I would still give them a towel and would expect him to help clean it up, but should that "attitude" (I hate to use that word) be dealt with?

[heartofjoy]

I know I've been learning and growing in grace-based discipline for just a little over a year, but the idea of defiance had to get thrown out the window pretty early on. You are so right, and I love how you expresed yourself! :tu A defiant act by my child makes no difference in how I handle a situation, except I may feel the need to address other issues. Either character issues, or more likely in my home, organic issues. Defiance is a cue to me to start looking at areas in my kids lives that need my intervention: food, bedtimes, interaction, downtime, or activity. :yes

[pneumaphile]

I mean I would still give them a towel and would expect him to help clean it up, but should that "attitude" (I hate to use that word) be dealt with?


Not Crystal, obviously, but I have $.02, as always, if you're interested.

I think about adult Christians I have discipled or shepherded in the past. If there's an attitude one day, we would probably overlook it. If there's an ongoing attitude problem, well, we would lovingly address that with our Christian sister, because that's a character issue that God probably wants to deal with, right?

Piggybacking on what Crystal said, if it's a character issue we'd deal with it, the child and I together. Crystal mentioned "character training"; I've never quite used that term but you betcha if Jody's in a spate where he's lying a lot, we're not only dealing with the behaviors as they happen, we're having Bible class regarding lying, we're having discussions of all types, etc.

I have to agree with Crystal that again, it's about what I'm feeling when the kid does it, if I'm calling it defiance, and that's not fair to the kid because it's not consistent. Kid dumps milk accidentally, I'm annoyed but that's about it, it's not his fault, it was an accident. Kid dumps milk while looking me in the eye after I told him to be careful, I'm a little more than annoyed. On a bad day, I'm outraged! But we've still got the same problem - there's milk on the floor! Needs to be cleaned up! If I start telling myself "he's willful, he's defiant, he did it just to get my goat," well all that assigning of intent does nothing more than fuel that outrage I'm feeling and continue to make me feel like he needs to be punished, that I need to make him feel sorry, whatever. Nothing helpful there.

That's why it's so helpful to just practice assigning benign intent (age-expected, just seeing what would happen, etc.) to keep my blood from boiling, and deal with the behavior, not the intent. And if he's spilling milk every day, he might not get milk for a while, or he might have to drink it on the porch, or only get a cup with a lid, or any number of a million ways to address the behavior, who cares about the intent, trying to figure out his intent just gets me mad and keeps me mad and keeps me from being the kind of gentle parent I want to be.

And if it's a character issue, we deal with it overall, when we deal with character issues. Not just related to the specific behavior (though I might use the behavior or one like it as an example when we're discussing it in a calm moment) but overall. If there's a character issue that God wants addressed, God doesn't just, in my experience, use one type of behavior to get at it. It starts popping out all over the place and it becomes clear that's what's to be addressed next. Not just in my kids, in me, too!

Sorry that was so wordy - I'll go in later and try to cut some of it down! LOL!

[ChristianMother27]

i've notice myself that whenever DD "defies" me i think she is trying to see if i'll be consistent in my response. i.e. if she throws something at me, i always tell her to pick it up and hand it to me nicely. now instead of immediately throwing something, she rears back her arm as if to throw and pauses a moment to see if i'll remind her to be gentle. when i do, she hands it to me nicely lol

[snlmama]

i've notice myself that whenever DD "defies" me i think she is trying to see if i'll be consistent in my response. i.e. if she throws something at me, i always tell her to pick it up and hand it to me nicely. now instead of immediately throwing something, she rears back her arm as if to throw and pauses a moment to see if i'll remind her to be gentle. when i do, she hands it to me nicely lol


:yes To add to that, something that's always stuck w/ me and probably helped me drop thinking in terms of defiance is reading something by Dr. Sears (I htink...) when my oldest was really young. A young child who keeps going back to what they're told not to touch isn't typically being "defiant" or even testing the *parent*. They're testing the rule. They're not thinking: "She said I can't touch it, but I'll show her." They're thinking: "OK, I can't touch the fireplace w/ my hand. What about one finger?... Nope.... what about my foot?....Nope....What about the other hand?....Nope. What about my head?.....Nope. Can I use this toy I'm holding to touch it?....Well, what about the other corner. Can I touch that?" is what's really going thru their mind. That's exactly what my kids did. And I'd hear over and over "oh, he's testing *you*. You need to show him who's boss.." But, no, having read that I could see it - he wasn't testing *me* and it wasn't *defiance*. They were testing the rule. What exactly do you mean by don't touch it? :think

Kinda silly, but still see this w/ my 7 year old except it's very obvious now what he's doing b/c he'll *ask* instead of doing it. "Mommy, you said we can't color in the living room. What about if we use colored pencils instead of crayons or markers?... Well then, can I draw w/ a pen on that paper if I sit on the floor instead of the couch?...What about if I bring the little table in and do it on that?....Well, can I move the kitchen chair to the very edge of the kitchen like *this* and color on a paper on the chair while I watch TV?...." :rolleyes2 But, now I *really* see what he's doing. It's not defiance. It's a need to very very specifically define the rule. Not all children have this need, but many do. :yes

So, taken that way, "defiant" 1, 2 and 3 year olds aren't really defiant or naughty. They're being little problem solvers.... :grin

[Chris3jam]

I can understand with little children. But, what about older kids? Like. . .8 and 9 and 10? The ones that you can actually see thinking about it. . . and then they decide that they'll do it anyway. You can *see* the little wheels turning. The ones that say, "But I wanted to do it anyway, and so I did!" I understand that they wanted to do it. . . but it was *wrong*!

[HuggaBuggaMommy]

Kinda silly, but still see this w/ my 7 year old except it's very obvious now what he's doing b/c he'll *ask* instead of doing it. "Mommy, you said we can't color in the living room. What about if we use colored pencils instead of crayons or markers?... Well then, can I draw w/ a pen on that paper if I sit on the floor instead of the couch?...What about if I bring the little table in and do it on that?....Well, can I move the kitchen chair to the very edge of the kitchen like *this* and color on a paper on the chair while I watch TV?...." :rolleyes2 But, now I *really* see what he's doing. It's not defiance. It's a need to very very specifically define the rule. Not all children have this need, but many do. :yes


My goodness, this is my 5 year old ds! It drives me crazy :banghead But now I'll try being more specific :mrgreen

[pneumaphile]

But, what about older kids? Like. . .8 and 9 and 10?I've been defiant with authority before. I've not wanted to do what my boss at work tells me and sometimes (wrongly) either passively don't do it, or work extra-slowly, or in my youth I even argued with bosses or teachers (defiantly?!). I had an adoption loss two years ago, and I was MAD at God! I didn't pray for a month!

What do I deserve from God for that attitude, even (especially!) as an adult who ought to know better?

How blessed I am that God doesn't give me the punishment I deserve! How wonderful it is that I get to be with him for eternity, no matter how I choose to behave on any given day! How wonderful that he uses consequences to help me learn and move past these "defiant" attitudes of mine more and more, and blocks the consequences I'm not ready or able to handle! How awesome that God would help me learn while still holding me close! Thank you, God!

My almost-7-year-old will soon be 8, 9, 10, 11. . .do I want to assign malicious intent to him and "make him pay" for his "defiance" because he "knows better?" Or do I want to deal with him the way God deals with me?

[Chris3jam]

I agree. Punishments don't help. . . they'll just be sneakier and sneakier about it. But. . . .how to deal? How to teach, disciple, when they don't *want* it, when they reject it? And when the consequences would involve/hurt more people? Seriously? My kids can be very candid. . . .and will readily admit that they knew it was wrong, but they didn't care. Actually, especially the 10 yo, can act very much like a fool, as regards to what the Bible says (as far as rejecting, etc.).

[ArmsOfLove]

I've missed you Amy :hug

BUT what about when I say "your cereal bowl goes on the table" and the child (now I am not meaning a toddler, like my 4yo) picks up the bowl and dumps it out on the floor..........what then? I mean I would still give them a towel and would expect him to help clean it up, but should that "attitude" (I hate to use that word) be dealt with? 4 is still SO young. No pre-logic. and pretty ornery ;) My 4yo sometimes does things cuz he really wanted to--even though he knew I said not to. This more comes out with him, because if I say no he knows I mean no, in asking over and over and over again. What I've learned with him is that he struggles with *limits* so my answer needs to be either YES or NO. It's good practice to let my yes be yes and my no be no :grin It's more, though, about not understanding time and space and lacking patience (like so many adults :shifty). He's also incredibly literal. Now, with your example, I can *totally* see my 4yo hearing "Your cereal bowl goes on the table" and thinking, "She didn't say the milk in it" :shifty So I'd have him clean up that milk and that would be all he got--at least until I could see him make that connection that if the milk is on the floor it isn't going in his tummy ;) then we might try again.

Also, my 4yo is totally about relationship--and it's even more than my other 4yo's because his love language is quality time and attention. If he's feeling ignored or unloved then his behavior is the quickest indication of that. If my 4yo did that I'd announce time to clean up, *then*, after it was cleaned up, proclaim breakfast over, and pull him to a comfy chair and talk to him or read a book or something that would connect us. And the next time he was taking his bowl to the table I would look him in the eye, and get down on his level, and say, "You need to take this bowl--and everything in it--to the table. Remember that if it's on the floor it won't get into your tummy." :)

[ArmsOfLove]

I can understand with little children. But, what about older kids? Like. . .8 and 9 and 10? The ones that you can actually see thinking about it. . . and then they decide that they'll do it anyway. You can *see* the little wheels turning. The ones that say, "But I wanted to do it anyway, and so I did!" I understand that they wanted to do it. . . but it was *wrong*!
I would be doing some major character training :tu I would be reading stories with morals, talking about consequences, sitting with them and setting consequences and then imposing them. I encounter this with my 8yo. I do try to remember that 8-10 is *pre* logic so they are *starting* to get it--not totally getting it yet. And I totally see the difference in what it looks like when my 8yo does something as opposed to that same child wen he was 7. Ames and Ilg does have "Your 8/9/10 year old" because these are still very foundational developmental years.

Thjis is the time I'm talking to my 8yo about the man he wants to become. I'm talking about developing good, Godly habits. I sat and talked to him about how God wants him to honor his father and mother because it makes things good for HIM--not for me. That I want him to honor me because God wants him to honor me because, like God, *I* want what is best for HIM! We've talked about what is sin, we've talked about how he was born with a sin nature that inclines him towards wanting to do what he wants but God wants him to learn how to live a holy and Godly life and that means not pursuing that sin. One example I've shared before was when he, a few times when we were out, sneaked food he had been told was not for him. The time he did it in his aunt and uncle's home and she told me (she wasn't upset because it was food for the party but she was concerned because she knew he wasn't supposed to have it and she said when she walked into the room where he was alone he jumped, looked guilty, and then threw it away saying he was done and getting rid of it" :neutral So I took him outside and we sat for a minute and I confronted him--speaking the truth in love. I told him that I knew what he had done, and told him what he'd done, and asked him to admit it which he did. Then I explained what sin is--that impulse he feels to do what he wants even when he knows not to. I asked how he feels when he gives in to that--we talked about feeling dirty in your heart because you have done something wrong and need to hide it, how it separates us because he is worried about me finding out. I prompted him with questions, talked about parables and teachings of Jesus. He asked me questions. I talked about how when I give him treat he gets to enjoy them with a clean heart :tu He agreed that feels better. And I talked to him about how I want him to feel good in his heart :heart I then talked to him about how doing this in his aunt's house, and her finding him, wronged her and he owed her a debt he needed to make amends for. We talked about how he could apologize and ask forgiveness and when he asked me if I would say it for him I reflected and validated his embarrassed feelings :(, and affirmed that he was old enough and brave enough to do this :tu So I walked with him, held his shoulders, and he apologized and asked forgiveness of his aunt :heart Then I took him and hugged him and told him how proud I was of him, asked if his heart now felt clean or dirty, and then helped him find some yummy treat that he could eat. I also reflected and affirmed how important it is for kids his age to have treats and said that I would try harder to make even more treats or arrange for yummy stuff in our daily lives and at parties especially :tu

The problem with punishments, not that I think you are suggesting that :hug I hear you just asking what *to* do :tu But the problem with punishments is that they break communication. I could not have had this conversation with a child who was fuming in his heart because he had just been punished or knew punishment was coming. That would distract him in both his heart and his thoughts. The ugly in his heart would be anger at me, not the natural consequence of guilt that I can talk about from the same team perspective.

[Aisling]

This thread is such a blessing :tu Thanks! :heart

[schoolofmom]

So I walked with him, held his shoulders, and he apologized and asked forgiveness of his aunt. Then I took him and hugged him and told him how proud I was of him, asked if his heart now felt clean or dirty, and then helped him find some yummy treat that he could eat. I also reflected and affirmed how important it is for kids his age to have treats and said that I would try harder to make even more treats or arrange for yummy stuff in our daily lives and at parties especially.

This story has me :happytears :happytears :happytears

[Chris3jam]

I would be doing some major character training I would be reading stories with morals, talking about consequences, sitting with them and setting consequences and then imposing them. I encounter this with my 8yo. I do try to remember that 8-10 is *pre* logic so they are *starting* to get it--not totally getting it yet. And I totally see the difference in what it looks like when my 8yo does something as opposed to that same child wen he was 7. Ames and Ilg does have "Your 8/9/10 year old" because these are still very foundational developmental years.

Thjis is the time I'm talking to my 8yo about the man he wants to become. I'm talking about developing good, Godly habits. I sat and talked to him about how God wants him to honor his father and mother because it makes things good for HIM--not for me. That I want him to honor me because God wants him to honor me because, like God, *I* want what is best for HIM! We've talked about what is sin, we've talked about how he was born with a sin nature that inclines him towards wanting to do what he wants but God wants him to learn how to live a holy and Godly life and that means not pursuing that sin. One example I've shared before was when he, a few times when we were out, sneaked food he had been told was not for him. The time he did it in his aunt and uncle's home and she told me (she wasn't upset because it was food for the party but she was concerned because she knew he wasn't supposed to have it and she said when she walked into the room where he was alone he jumped, looked guilty, and then threw it away saying he was done and getting rid of it" So I took him outside and we sat for a minute and I confronted him--speaking the truth in love. I told him that I knew what he had done, and told him what he'd done, and asked him to admit it which he did. Then I explained what sin is--that impulse he feels to do what he wants even when he knows not to. I asked how he feels when he gives in to that--we talked about feeling dirty in your heart because you have done something wrong and need to hide it, how it separates us because he is worried about me finding out. I prompted him with questions, talked about parables and teachings of Jesus.

Well. . . .we do that. It looks *very* much like that at our house -- until we get to the 'asking forgiveness' part. I even use shows on TV to discuss things. Movies that are good for us were Disney's Little Mermaid (and I read them the original story, also, in which she dies for her disobedience), Finding Nemo, books like Aesop's Fables, the Greek and Roman myths -- things like that. Hercules was very good. .. .how he gave his life for another (or tried to). The pull for them seems to be way too strong. They'll even say that they couldn't help it (I believe them). . . .but will *not* accept that they could try. But, when I tell them what we need to do to make amends or ask forgiveness or some such. . .they will actually scream and try to run away! And I do not believe in forcing apologies.

I need to try and think about an example. About what was done, and then what I did about it. And then maybe you can tell me why I can't get through to them . ..why I'm failing. It's got to be in some detail I'm missing. . .. . .

[SouthPaw]

Ok, so in essence are you saying that behavior training (i.e. specifics) and character training (motives) each work better when you work on them at separate times?

This makes a lot of sense, since it separates the action and the emotions from the intellectual understanding. You can't expect a kid to philosophize on something when they are upset or when you are upset.

And instead, punitive measures would be trying to moosh the two together, which would cause confusion....am I being punished for WHAT i did or for WHY (mommy assumes) I did it... which to me seems like it would incite MORE rule-testing :think :think

Plus a little toddler won't understand the whole "motive" thing anyway, so why should they be expected to understand it when they are at their most emotionally unstable?

Interesting. Thanks for the post, Crystal!!

[ArmsOfLove]

Is dh modelling appropriate behavior or addressing it in the same way you are?

And DixieKitten :yes :yes :yes Think about how Jesus would hear the disciples doing or talking about something wrong and rather than addressing what they did he would tell them a parable :tu And then when they were in the moment of wrong behavior he would stop them, but lessons would come at differen times. For example--how Jesus taught them about children. When they were keeping the children away from them he said, "Hey, knock it off, let them come to me!" And at other times he talked about coming to him like a little child, and how the kingdom of God is like a little child, and how what we do to the least of these we do to him :heart

[Chris3jam]

Is dh modelling appropriate behavior or addressing it in the same way you are?

No. His remark is *always* "You need to show 'em who's boss and give them a spanking!" or, "They need a good spanking!" or something like that. When we're together, he backs off completely and I need to deal with everything. By that time (when he's gotten home from work), I'm usually not a very good example of GBD :blush :blush (I'm tired and stressed out). He also 'vents' on them. "How can you be so stupid!" and things like that. His expectations are very high. . .and he gets extremely frustrated when they don't act the way he thinks they should be acting for their ages. He also does the "witholding" thing. . . if dd is having a fit, he refuses to pick her up or hold her when she asks. He says that he will "not reward that behaviour!". He does have a softer spot for her than he does for the boys. . . .and is more patient and 'nicer' to her. . . and she's the best-behaved one! So, anyway. So. . .this is a 'character training' issue, then, and not really 'defiance'?

[4blessings]

I can understand with little children. But, what about older kids? Like. . .8 and 9 and 10? The ones that you can actually see thinking about it. . . and then they decide that they'll do it anyway. You can *see* the little wheels turning. The ones that say, "But I wanted to do it anyway, and so I did!" I understand that they wanted to do it. . . but it was *wrong*!


In our family, this is where logical/natural consequences come into play. First of all, I should say that I don't really think my older children do things defiantly. I don't see it that way, anyway. Do they sometimes do things I specifically told them not to do? Sure! Did they do it thinking, "Mom told me not to do XYZ, but I don't care. I'm going to, anyway." No. It usually comes from a place of impulse control or just simply getting carried away and forgetting.

But whatever the reason for the "disobedience", the consequences (natural and/or logical) are the same. We wouldn't add a consequence for the act of defiance.

An example. My oldest son (14) has an AirSoft BB gun with which he likes to target shoot. DH and I have specifically told him that he is never, ever to shoot when any small children are around b/c he can't trust small children to stay behind him when he shoots. One day I was out watching him shoot. A small neighbor child walked into the empty lot near where he was shooting. He saw him and shot anyway. :jawdrop Now, I know my son's heart, and I know for sure that he didn't defy me. He just got carried away, as 14 y/o boys sometimes do, and just didn't think. Still, the consequence for being unsafe with the gun was losing his gun for a while. It doesn't matter why he did what he did. He was unsafe and from the time he got the gun, he knew that ownership of the gun came with the condition that he would always use it safely. Am I making any sense at all? LOL!

[Chris3jam]

Actually, I've had my boys tell me that. They've said, "I know what you said. . . .I don't care. I really want to ________" What's scaring me is that I don't know their hearts anymore. :( What I'm seeing now is just not good.

[akmyilee]

Ok, so in essence are you saying that behavior training (i.e. specifics) and character training (motives) each work better when you work on them at separate times?

This makes a lot of sense, since it separates the action and the emotions from the intellectual understanding. You can't expect a kid to philosophize on something when they are upset or when you are upset.

And instead, punitive measures would be trying to moosh the two together, which would cause confusion....am I being punished for WHAT i did or for WHY (mommy assumes) I did it... which to me seems like it would incite MORE rule-testing :think :think

Plus a little toddler won't understand the whole "motive" thing anyway, so why should they be expected to understand it when they are at their most emotionally unstable?

Interesting. Thanks for the post, Crystal!!




Yes, this is good stuff...........I think will all the paridymn shifting, this is the hardest point for me........the "they are not TRYING to irk me off". I agree that Kyle is still very young, it hard to remember sometimes........Thanks to all you ladies, this is really helping me process this!

[OpalsMom]

Yes, this is good stuff...........I think will all the paridymn shifting, this is the hardest point for me........the "they are not TRYING to irk me off". I agree that Kyle is still very young, it hard to remember sometimes........Thanks to all you ladies, this is really helping me process this!


Another thing to think about -- suppose they are trying to make you mad. How is it in your best interest to play that game? If DD doesn't want to clean up, I can make it about fighting with her, and she's fine with that, suits her to a T. But the room doesn't get clean. Or I can make it about cleaning up, which is what *I* want.

If something is defiance, the last thing you want to do is meet it head-on. That just feeds it.
The opposite of defiance is not more defiance! It's cooperation.

So once again -- defiance, rule-testing, lack of impulse control, pure accident -- I don't care, not useful. The useful thing to do is deal with the situation and work separately later to prevent a recurrence.

[canadiyank]

Right - that's what hit me - you want to find out what causes the "defiance"...AND address the resulting behaviour. If I can find out the root cause, I can deal with the external behaviour more appropriately and with much more compassion and calmness on my part.

[ArmsOfLove]

Right--and, at the same time, while age expected or age appropriate isn't an excuse for misbehavior (I still address and work with the behavior) if something is universally associated with a certain age group then it's unrealistic to expect otherwise from your child of that age :shrug I mean, if ALL 2 year olds look at you and do what they've been told not to do then there must be something else going on there than the idea that all 2yo's are evil and villianous and out to get their parents :rolleyes2 In fact, if you read about what is going on developmentally with 2yo's it makes total sense that they are doing this :doh

[akmyilee]

Ok, well this is where I get confused..........because I shouldn't be focusing on the why of the situation, the reaction is the same......you spill the cereal --- we clean it up......regardless of the reason taht they spilt it BUT at the same time, I do want to get to the root of the issue, if there is an issue, maybe part of it is that I am making issues where there is none.......or better yet, maybe the issue is ME :hunh :banghead and my reaction.......what has really impacted me is the "people behave well that feel well" thought. This feels like a catch 22 to me??? Am I just confused? :scratch

[ArmsOfLove]

This feels like a catch 22 to me??? I'm confused--not sure what you're thinking is a catch 22 :O

[akmyilee]

Sorry, I am totally not making sense.........

ok, I am suppose to think about the reason behind the action/behavior but it isn't suppose to matter what the reason for the behavior is because the response, from me, is the same.

In the cereal example..........it doesn't matter if the spill is from an accident or from anger or whatever, my response is still "ok, you spilled, lets clean up" I TOTALLY get that.

But in other treads and other conversations we (GCMers) spend a lot of time talking about the reason behind the behavior and getting to the reason and "fixing" that issue will improve the behavior.

So how does that fit in the whole "defiance" issue?

I *think* that what Chrystal said in the first post is what I need to focus on here.......maybe that it doesn't need "fixing" because it is developmental ( like a toddler exploring or a 4yo questioning) OR like someone else said about it could be an organic issue (like they are tired, hungry, etc.) OR that it is an issue with the way that I am responding to them or that I haven't spent enough time or filled the child's love tank.

Are we saying that there is NO direct defiance? like it doesn't exist? Or maybe that their is defiance but it is just a symptom of another thing, like I talked about in the last paragraph? and the defiance causes the inappropriate behavior but you have to get to the root of the defiance not just the behavior?

I visualize it like this:

drops cereal on the floor when I asked him to be careful -----> Defiant attitude -----> didn't get a good nights sleep

And the lack of the good nights sleep is what we should focus on.

I am not saying for sure that I am with this idea. Just thinking outloud now that ya'll have me thinking

Thanks for working with me to sort this out ya'll. :hug I started a blog post about 2 weeks ago about Direct defiance as it seems to keep coming up IRL issues for me, and couldn't finish it because I wasn't sure how to explain it all or what I thought.........sorry, that is OT but I just wanted to explain more about why I am picking ya'lls brains like this........I don't disagree with what you are saying I just don't fulling undersand *why* I agree that direct defiance isn't or shouldn't be a mindset that we put ourselves in. One of my big issues is pitting parents against their kids and this seems to be the place where the rubber meets the road when I start to talk about the adversarial parenting stuff.

[Chris3jam]

I get the developmental stuff. I get the sin nature stuff. I get the heart issues. I get all that. {throwing hands up in frustration} But, maybe I'm project oriented or think I have more control over the situation than I do, because I cannot reach the hearts of my children. Today at the store, they were goofing around. And I was trying very hard to contain the situation. Well, one 'popped' another one on the nose with one of those pool noodles. And they were 'discussing' the situation. And one said, "Well, what is popped?" and the other one punched him (hard!) in the head, and said, "*That* is popped!". It was bad. . . .. he's 10, and he's a big, strong boy, and caused damage to his 8 yo brother. I pulled him aside and talked with him. He said, basically, he didn't care ---- he was glad he did it. I see a very disturbing heart issues in both boys. .. .they. don't. care. About anyone, anything, whatsoever. They feel it is their right and will do whatever they need to do to exercise their right to physical expression of their unhappiness. I mean. . . I *get* it. . .. but. . . .how do I reach the hearts of my children, and why do they seem to have a much more sinful nature (if you will) than any other child I've known/met? Is it not defiance to go against what you know is right, with a person trying to help you to do right (I tried to stop him), and do it anyway?

[pneumaphile]

I get the developmental stuff. I get the sin nature stuff. I get the heart issues. I get all that. {throwing hands up in frustration} But, maybe I'm project oriented or think I have more control over the situation than I do, because I cannot reach the hearts of my children. Today at the store, they were goofing around. And I was trying very hard to contain the situation. Well, one 'popped' another one on the nose with one of those pool noodles. And they were 'discussing' the situation. And one said, "Well, what is popped?" and the other one punched him (hard!) in the head, and said, "*That* is popped!". It was bad. . . .. he's 10, and he's a big, strong boy, and caused damage to his 8 yo brother. I pulled him aside and talked with him. He said, basically, he didn't care ---- he was glad he did it. I see a very disturbing heart issues in both boys. .. .they. don't. care. About anyone, anything, whatsoever. They feel it is their right and will do whatever they need to do to exercise their right to physical expression of their unhappiness. I mean. . . I *get* it. . .. but. . . .how do I reach the hearts of my children, and why do they seem to have a much more sinful nature (if you will) than any other child I've known/met? Is it not defiance to go against what you know is right, with a person trying to help you to do right (I tried to stop him), and do it anyway?


Can I gently suggest that just as in discipling/shepherding adult Christians, it's the same with your kids? You don't reach their hearts. The Holy Spirit reaches their hearts. We just have the privilege of facilitating that with the environment and the education and the discipling we provide in our home with our children. God changes hearts, we have no power over that.

I hear you're at wits end with your boys. May I brainstorm a bit?

I find myself in situations like you described simply dealing with the behavior, not the motives behind it at all. I don't have a "heart-to-heart" about their behavior/why/are they sorry/etc. right there in the grocery store. I stop the behavior (make them hold my hand, make them hold the cart, maybe put my 4-year-old on my back where he's not able to join in the fray, etc. If it's just really bad, they're too tired/hungry/they can't stop themselves, etc., I just abandon ship and put them in the car - just finish my shopping later (this doesn't happen often the older they get, but I'm still willing if it gets this far).

I keep it short and sweet right there. I might not say several sentences about why "popping" your brother is wrong. I might just say "knock it off. Joe can you grab me two jars of peanut butter?" Or, I might state the rule, "we don't hurt with our bodies, use your words." Or whatever. Short, simple, and to the point.

I deal with the heart issues/character issues separately, when things are quiet, when I'm alone with a boy in a car or at bedtime after reading books, or on a "date" at a coffee shop or milkshake place. Or when we're reading the Bible together in the morning. Or whatever. We'll discuss whatever I see as the main issue that continues to pop up in their behavior, pointing to the part of their character God seems to want to work on right now. I pray first. Sometimes for quite a few days/weeks. Until it becomes clear to me what God would have me address. I ask them to help me think of solutions for what to do when they feel like popping their brother. I talk about God living inside them helping them. We pray. We might even talk about not caring, about wanting to hurt someone and not caring if we do, and do we want to have hard hearts or soft ones?

Jody and I talked a lot for a series of weeks/months about his bossiness. How it's respectful to let people make their own decisions. How instead of arguing, we can say it once and let people take it or leave it. How letting other people decide is a way to show the love of Christ, and is a way to experience the love of Christ through out interactions with others. They were some beautiful conversations. Can you imagine having conversations like this in the middle of a grocery store with two heavy-breathing, fighting boys and a pool noodle?

Anyway, these are just off-the-top-of-my-head thoughts, they might not even be coherent. But I could see you're sad about this, that your heart hurts, and that you're worried about your boys. I wanted to reassure you that their behavior (and their words when they're in the moment and angry) doesn't mean they have hard hearts. It just means they're in the moment and angry. Keep praying for your boys, and I'll be :popcorn to hear what others have to say to you on this, as well.

[allisonintx]

I see a very disturbing heart issues in both boys. .. .they. don't. care. About anyone, anything, whatsoever. They feel it is their right and will do whatever they need to do to exercise their right to physical expression of their unhappiness.

Is this attitude, by any chance, a reflection of the attitude of someone they respect or love that is close to them?

[Chris3jam]

Is this attitude, by any chance, a reflection of the attitude of someone they respect or love that is close to them?
I don't know. If I think about it, it could be a reflection of what dh says. Whenever they are 'disobedient' with him, and question him, one of the things he says *a lot* is "I don't care! It doesn't matter what *you* think or feel! I'm the dad, and I *say* so! It is not for you to ask questions! Only to obey!" It happens a lot. But. . . it just seems like they've taken the selfish sin nature up a notch or two.

[mamatia]

:hug
i agree with amy...its up to the Holy Spirit to change their heart. right now, with the ages they are, i feel like maybe it is almost more appopriate to be concentrating on their salvation even more than their behavior. :shrug i don't have kids that old, so i don't pretend to know how it works...but i do know one thing: when ministering to unbelievers (which i think we have to assume all children are until they have accepted Christ as their Savior), i am more worried about getting them to the feet of Jesus and letting HIM work on their heart than i am about changing their outward behavior. just my 2 cents.

please hear this: it may seem like your boys have a worse sin nature than others, but that is because you are around them every day and you see EVERYTHING. trust me...if you could see my heart...the way i speak to my daughter some days...the way i don't pray ferevently for some of my unbelieving family...the way i gossip...the way i talk back to my dh...etc etc etc. they are no worse than you or i....they just haven't wrapped their arms around Grace yet. :hug

[OpalsMom]

If somebody you love and trust tells you that the world works like this:
You are bad.
You can only be made good by being hit.

Then how should you behave when people don't hit you?

[glassangel]

Thanks...thanks...thanks...

I'm with Godchick here - reading & learning :popcorn

Crystal & Amy can you come live near me and be my mentors???? Pleeeeeeeeeeeeasssssssse? :grin

[pneumaphile]

Crystal & Amy can you come live near me and be my mentors???? Pleeeeeeeeeeeeasssssssse? :grin
This made me almost faint! LOL!

Thank you for the incredible compliment of putting my name in the same breath as Crystal's. She taught me everything I know, and I still have tons to learn :)

[ArmsOfLove]

Crystal & Amy can you come live near me and be my mentors???? Pleeeeeeeeeeeeasssssssse? :grin
This made me almost faint! LOL!
'[pk.';[p' Thank you for the incredible compliment of putting my name in the same breath as Crystal's. She taught me everything I know, and I still have tons to learn :)
:hug

I have so many dreams over the next few years of doing more travelling and spending time with moms and famliesjh,hhm--that was ds taking over :giggle I had to interrupt my post to rescue two toddlers from a situation that resulted in this song:

Buuuuuuubies Toilets are not safe for you
Buuuuuuubies they aren't a toy for you
Buuuuuuubies when toilets have pee pee in them
Buuuuuuubies it's not a safe thing to do

[ArmsOfLove]

*sigh* I could use a GBD Supernanny.... . and a surgically inplanted backbone. Before I lose my children altogether.
What state are you in again, Chris? You can pm me if you don't want to publically post it :)

[Chris3jam]

We're in GA. . . right in the heart of "spank 'em 'til they're sweet, the Bible tells us so" territory. We're outside of Atlanta. I bet if I quit 'hiding out' and spending more time than ought to be spent on the computer, we may just have a shot. But, I crumple when they ask to watch "Magic School Bus" or "Fetch with Ruff Ruffman" or "Cyberchase" (and stuff like that). *sigh* And TV does not help. Ah, well. Off to the bookstore we go! And I hope we can keep some semblance of appropriate social behaviour!

[bliss]

Chris - first off, I HATE it when people say stuff like this to me, so I'm :hiding. . .but I know you won't :poke me cuz you're all nice like that! Your boys sound much like my now 13yo stepson. He will say lovely things like, "Good! I'm glad I hurt Booger, and I'm going to do it again as soon as I can!" and you know what it's almost all tied into? Food. We have to watch him like a hawk for blood sugar issues. If he is off a healthy diet, or if he has not eaten frequently enough, he is a whole different evil little person. Now like I said, I hate it when people boil whole huge behavior issues down to, like, "oh, that sounds like a dairy allergy" and you're going, "but my child just lit the counch on fire, how is that a dairy allergy?!?!?!?" but I have seen it in action with this kid. I know how you feel, at your wit's end and ready to throw in the towel. :hugheart I so know. :pray for you, mama.

[J3K]

Chris , I have a child that often says things like "i don't care" or "I know what you said , I'm not doing it.".

My response is always "Then we have a bigger issue here. Your heart is in a bad place. Such a good heart to be locked in such a bad place. "

I usually get this as a response "oh."

sometimes I'll get "I still don't care."

No matter the response to my statement the next thing we do is pray. Not always easy when you'd rather smack their lil faces. :blush Sometimes we pray together , sometimes we pray seperately. Just depends.

The prayer usually goes something like " Dear Jesus , we have a good child here. I am so very thankful you blessed me with such an awesome child. We've got a problem with some heart issues. I know that we can't change the heart on our own ,that we need you to do it. Please help change *name's* heart. Thank you . Amen."

And then I repeat what started the whole thing. What ever direction that was. Example :Now then, we both know that hearts don't change immediately , but we need to make effort. A good start is helping me do the dishes right now. Let's go."

Hope that helps a wee bit.

[Mother Duck]

Thanks Jennifer3kids -- That is a real help to me, will file it away in my toolbox :)

[AttachedMamma]

As far as I'm concerned, I could honestly care less if something is defiance or willfull defiance or ignorance or an accident or sleepwalking :shifty I respond the same way. I don't have to play the game of discerning intent, I assign a positive one because it makes my life more pleasant.


:tu I love that--it sounds so liberating!


So GBD can be both harder and easier than punishing. Harder, because you need to be creative and tuned in and learn how to work with your child. Easier because you don't have to try and be a mind or heart reader.:heart


I suppose I can save myself a lot of trouble in some areas by not trying to read my DD's mind. ;)

Thanks for the great insight.

Cindi

[Lois]

:cry :cry :cry It's so hard not to revert back to how you were treated as a child when DC are all "up in your grill" ond you end up breaking a wet wipe box or smashing a cereal box or closing yourself in the closet so you don't physically hurt them (take into account being super tired from having a newborn and emotionally drained from dealing with toddler who is super high needs, and has only gotten more HN since DD#2 was born) :banghead :banghead :banghead...Lord, change my "instinctive" response toward my kids to a "Gracestinktive" one.

[mummy2boys]

Lois :hugheart take heart mama...none of us are on top of it all the time....and we shouldn't expect ourselves to be...We try, with God's help to do our best... :pray

[bananacake]

Thank you for not denying that willful defiance exists, but instead, offering a suggestion in how to deal with it :) When I've asked about it in various forums in the past, I basically get attacked for even thinking it could possibly exist and am never offered any solutions. So I appreciate you basically saying, "We're asking the wrong question." The question is not does it exist; the question really is does it need a different response? And the answer is no :)

[chelsea]

I'm glad someone just commented on this thread so that it showed up in my "unread replies" page. I have really gotten into a bad habit of asking ds "Did you do that by accident or on purpose?" :blush I needed to re-read this!
Thanks!! :heart

[bliss]

I am revisiting this thread a million years later ;) because I got stuck in a circular conversation with a Dobson mama on this this weekend. I could not get across to her that a two year old does NOT look you in the eye, say in her mind, "I know this is against the rules, but I've decided with full forethought to say 'screw you, mama' and do it anyway!!" I talked about positive and negative intent, I talked about what I like to call "toddler as scientist" (the idea that every experience is a learning experience for children and, while they've been told not to pull the cat's TAIL, noone has told them not to pull the cat's WHISKERS, and what will happen if I give THAT a shot?) I felt like I got stuck and could not get through with the idea that esp for a toddler/preschooler, that "willful spirit of defiance" is NOT what's happening, and even on the outside chance that it IS, spanking is NOT going to fix it.
Anyway, I think it's great that this thread is still here all this time later, because it has so many valuable ideas in it.

[J3K]

bliss...that's so sad you couldn't get thru to her. I said to one mama , after a long circular discussion..."If you can identify their age by their behaviors...it's obviously the age and not the child. If you can look down at a "willful" child and say 'he's going thru his two's" then it's the AGE not the child. The AGE makes them curious and willful and defiant...not the CHILD choosing to behave badly. " At least it gave her some thought.

[bliss]

:think That's good - I like that.

[KLin]

Yep, I too was in need of this refresher. Just returned from vacation and my boys have forgotten alot. I just need to extend grace all around and find reminder games. :pray4

[NewLeaf]

Wow. This thread has helped me AMAZINGLY. I kept thinking 'What do you do when it's willful defiance?' As though that's a whole 'nother level of awful. It's truly a relief to know that I don't have to discern that in the moment but that I can watch trends of how my child is behaving and address those issues at another time.

I've got a lot of :pray4 to do.


Thank you thank you thank you to everyone who gave examples and responses... it's helped me immensely. :heart

[newday]

I realize how often I must have assumed negative intent in the past and assigned guilt because I often hear my girls say, "she did it on purpose!" --- I realize though that my reactions (due to my thinking) have changed because my typical response is, "It would be a mistake to assume the worst about your sister, how can you show love to her right now?"
Much better :)[still haven't arrived, though...]

[saturnfire16]

I'm glad this thread got revived! I need to show it to dh.

[raquel]

Slowly assimilating. :heart It's so hard at the moment since DD is in that "testing what the rules are exactly" age and it's really starting to get to me.

[rebecuna]

GREAT thread. So... can I throw out another question? I struggle with the feeling that I'm "backing down". Like, when it's time to have rest time, and DS is bouncing off the walls, and climbing on me or hitting me, I feel like I'm "giving in" by saying, "It seems like you're not ready for rest time today, how about we read a book together [or watch a movie or whatever]?" As in, doesn't that "teach" him that if he doesn't want to do something he should just be rough with me and I'll give in? What would be a better response (or attitude/expectation adjustment on my part)?

I'm positive I've asked this question in different variations several times in the past... so sorry for the repeat! I just can't seem to get it through my thick, punitively-trained brain! :/

[canadiyank]

You know, one thing that helped me was to reframe "giving in" to "reconsidering my options." I mean, we do that all the time with our families. Plans change, that doesn't mean we're giving in, it means things have changed due to circumstances. Hope that makes sense. :think There's times to hold your ground, but there's also times when it makes better sense "reconsidering our options."

I tend to go punitive-minded really quickly, so ITU. :hug

[ArmsOfLove]

ITA with Meghan. *I* am the mom--if *I* choose to take into account new information (whether it be that this brand is cheaper than another when I go shopping or it's nap time and I realize you're not tired or overtired and I need to approach this differently) that is ME making a choice. I would suggest if it feels like giving it the answer isn't to not do it, but to find more strength in your inner power and make a conscious choice--and then own it :D

[Tandem mama]

Since this is in a public part of the forum-can I have dh read the op? We are struggling with how we view things as defiance.

[Heather Micaela]

Since this is in a public part of the forum-can I have dh read the op? We are struggling with how we view things as defiance.
anything public is fair game for all:heart

[Tandem mama]

anything public is fair game for all:heart

That's what I thought but am still new and didn't want to break rules.

[wallflowermama]

:bump

[Domina]

Subbing.

[Molly]

Thanks Crystal, that was a really simple way of putting it. I really appreciate that. It certainly will make me think when it comes to the children and their defiance. I do have a question though, not sure whether this has already been discussed as I only your original post. What if the defiance is against doing something? Eg my daughter was adamant that she was not going to do her school work with me yesterday, I have no idea why but she was in a very cranky mood not wanting to do anything at all that I suggested. How do you deal with that? Do you as the parent ask why she is feeling that way, why she is not wanting to do school work? Sorry, but I am only just beginning on my journey as a grace based parent.

[ArmsOfLove]

Thanks Crystal, that was a really simple way of putting it. I really appreciate that. It certainly will make me think when it comes to the children and their defiance. I do have a question though, not sure whether this has already been discussed as I only your original post. What if the defiance is against doing something? Eg my daughter was adamant that she was not going to do her school work with me yesterday, I have no idea why but she was in a very cranky mood not wanting to do anything at all that I suggested. How do you deal with that? Do you as the parent ask why she is feeling that way, why she is not wanting to do school work? Sorry, but I am only just beginning on my journey as a grace based parent.

I can answer briefly but I'm sure a new post started with this situation will get lots of different ideas for you. Usually I evaluate the situation using the HALT (I know some have added other letters that are great but I can never remember them :giggle3). This is basically to stop and ask if the child is Hungry, Anxious, Lonely or Tired. Add in whatever other things are usually a trigger for your child and most times it's pretty easy to figure out what is impacting them. Take some time to address the emotion or underlying issue and then you will gain cooperation (or remove the reason it wasn't coming). You can ask with an older child but not all children are able to know and express their feelings until they are taught. My guess is she was either hungry or tired or something negative happened at school she hadn't yet processed :heart

[Molly]

I will hunt out that other thread. But thank you, that so makes sense.

[GraemesMomma]

Way old thread that I want to sub :) Great stuff here. :heart

[filmgirl2911]

me, too :shifty

thanks for bumping it so I could find it :grin

[SewingGreenMama]

Thanks, this has been coming up a lot for me lately because they just did a Dobson study at our church.........I really needed that clarification and reminder.

in the instance of the spilled cereal..........I would have thought the examples that you gave would not have been defiance either. BUT what about when I say "your cereal bowl goes on the table" and the child (now I am not meaning a toddler, like my 4yo) picks up the bowl and dumps it out on the floor..........what then? I mean I would still give them a towel and would expect him to help clean it up, but should that "attitude" (I hate to use that word) be dealt with?

I've discovered that when my son deliberately disobeyed me before he could talk it was to make sure the rule still applied, that it was true with both hands, etc, not defiance, just exploring the boundaries to fully understand them, or such a total single minded NEED to know, touch, explore the particular thing they are unable to stop and need serious distraction.
Now that he is older when he is defient I have discovered it is usually because I've either not been consistent or I have treated him unjustly and he is defiant and uncooperative out of hurt and anger, that is MY fault, it doesn't excuse him but it does help me understand, then I step forward and apologize, re-establish boundaries etc and almost immediately he is a different child. I'm modeling correct behavior and addressed the true situation, his defiance was a helpless, hurt, and/or confused child's reaction to confusing boundaries/authority and/or unjustness.

[katiekind]

I've discovered that when my son deliberately disobeyed me before he could talk it was to make sure the rule still applied, that it was true with both hands, etc

My scientific/engineer/techie-minded son was like that as a tiny tot.

[Tandem mama]

For my oldest, I've noticed "defiance" during stress times and age changes. I think the age changes may be a hormonal shift. :shrug When she feels out of control, she becomes oppositional and fights me for control over everything going on in our home. We keep our boundaries but make space for extra choice making for her during those times. We try to allow her to feel more in control without becoming permissive and losing all boundaries. We reasses some of them to make sure they're necessary. Mostly we just wait the phase out.

[SewingGreenMama]

My scientific/engineer/techie-minded son was like that as a tiny tot.
Good to know my techno kid isn't the only one.

[Whirlwind]

Thanks, that is a very helpful way of looking at things (that kids may be testing the rule for greater understanding, rather than testing a parent for "weakness"). I'll try to tuck that info in the back of my mind somewhere for any future frustrating moments.

[mokamoto]

I would be doing some major character training :tu I would be reading stories with morals, talking about consequences, sitting with them and setting consequences and then imposing them. I encounter this with my 8yo. I do try to remember that 8-10 is *pre* logic so they are *starting* to get it--not totally getting it yet. And I totally see the difference in what it looks like when my 8yo does something as opposed to that same child wen he was 7. Ames and Ilg does have "Your 8/9/10 year old" because these are still very foundational developmental years.

Thjis is the time I'm talking to my 8yo about the man he wants to become. I'm talking about developing good, Godly habits. I sat and talked to him about how God wants him to honor his father and mother because it makes things good for HIM--not for me. That I want him to honor me because God wants him to honor me because, like God, *I* want what is best for HIM! We've talked about what is sin, we've talked about how he was born with a sin nature that inclines him towards wanting to do what he wants but God wants him to learn how to live a holy and Godly life and that means not pursuing that sin. One example I've shared before was when he, a few times when we were out, sneaked food he had been told was not for him. The time he did it in his aunt and uncle's home and she told me (she wasn't upset because it was food for the party but she was concerned because she knew he wasn't supposed to have it and she said when she walked into the room where he was alone he jumped, looked guilty, and then threw it away saying he was done and getting rid of it" :neutral So I took him outside and we sat for a minute and I confronted him--speaking the truth in love. I told him that I knew what he had done, and told him what he'd done, and asked him to admit it which he did. Then I explained what sin is--that impulse he feels to do what he wants even when he knows not to. I asked how he feels when he gives in to that--we talked about feeling dirty in your heart because you have done something wrong and need to hide it, how it separates us because he is worried about me finding out. I prompted him with questions, talked about parables and teachings of Jesus. He asked me questions. I talked about how when I give him treat he gets to enjoy them with a clean heart :tu He agreed that feels better. And I talked to him about how I want him to feel good in his heart :heart I then talked to him about how doing this in his aunt's house, and her finding him, wronged her and he owed her a debt he needed to make amends for. We talked about how he could apologize and ask forgiveness and when he asked me if I would say it for him I reflected and validated his embarrassed feelings :(, and affirmed that he was old enough and brave enough to do this :tu So I walked with him, held his shoulders, and he apologized and asked forgiveness of his aunt :heart Then I took him and hugged him and told him how proud I was of him, asked if his heart now felt clean or dirty, and then helped him find some yummy treat that he could eat. I also reflected and affirmed how important it is for kids his age to have treats and said that I would try harder to make even more treats or arrange for yummy stuff in our daily lives and at parties especially :tu

The problem with punishments, not that I think you are suggesting that :hug I hear you just asking what *to* do :tu But the problem with punishments is that they break communication. I could not have had this conversation with a child who was fuming in his heart because he had just been punished or knew punishment was coming. That would distract him in both his heart and his thoughts. The ugly in his heart would be anger at me, not the natural consequence of guilt that I can talk about from the same team perspective.

THIS really, really helps me! :ty4, Crystal!!!

[filmgirl2911]

You know, one thing that helped me was to reframe "giving in" to "reconsidering my options." I mean, we do that all the time with our families. Plans change, that doesn't mean we're giving in, it means things have changed due to circumstances. Hope that makes sense. :think There's times to hold your ground, but there's also times when it makes better sense "reconsidering our options."

I tend to go punitive-minded really quickly, so ITU. :hug

ITA with Meghan. *I* am the mom--if *I* choose to take into account new information (whether it be that this brand is cheaper than another when I go shopping or it's nap time and I realize you're not tired or overtired and I need to approach this differently) that is ME making a choice. I would suggest if it feels like giving it the answer isn't to not do it, but to find more strength in your inner power and make a conscious choice--and then own it :D

Thank you for this perspective. I've been feeling a bit at odds with my husband wrt the idea of "giving in" when something is not working.

This really helps. :hug