Can we talk about Defiance?

[Can Dance]

From what I understand, and my vast parenting knowledge/experience :lol, defiance is something someone dd's age should be incapable of. right? so, when I tell her not to throw something on the floor and she does it anyway, its poor impulse control, not because she is being "defiant" and trying to make me mad or something. at least, this is what I am understanding.

so at what age is defiance a reality? and how do I deal with that? I am just trying to get age appropriate expectations here.

[AmyDoll]

defiance is *such* a negative word - I don't think I'd use it ever. It has such nasty "I'm bigger than you" connotations.
I can hear my parents saying "How dare you defy me?!" and it's not a good feeling and they never really wanted to know why I made a different choice than the one they were asking me to. :shrug

So, that's my opinion and my baggage :giggle

[MarynMunchkins]

Defiant is actually used as a description as part of Doug's diagnosis. :/ It's my understanding that defiance is defined as anything a child can and has done in the past (and therefore, knows how to do it) and refuses to do without reason.

TBH, even when I am ready to snap with him, I have never seen behavior that fits that definition. There is always a reason, even if it only makes sense to him. And once he can tell me that reason, I can usually work with him to help accomplish what I want him to do. :)

I personally think that defiance becomes an issue with your child when you choose to view them that way.

[RealLifeMama]

I always sort of thought of defiance as an intentional act against the parent.
Like "I am not going to do this because you told me to do it.
Like in the instance of telling a child to pick up toys and they choose not to because they want to show you that they don't have to do what you say. An "I'll show him!" sort of attitude.
But that doesn't really fit with the definition that Mary gave.
:shrug

[tnaallen]

I agree with Amy. And rather they are 2 or 22 I believe they can still show this trait. We can call it something else so that it doesn't sound "bad", but it is a reality that happens. I wouldn't use the word with my child, like the example above "How dare you defy me." since I think recognizing a response and labeling them in front of your child are seperate issues. If that makes sense.

[BluegrassMama]

When any of mine at that age, looked right at me and did it anyway (and I knew they'd understood me) I always thought it looked a little more like curiosity. "What will happen if I throw it?"

Defiance (IMO) would have to come from the toddler fearing you. Saying to you and himself, "Do it, I don't care." :sad2

If the toddler has nothing to fear other than the toy being put away, or himself being physically moved, it stands to reason that he will throw it anyway sometimes.

What I just wrote is what gives my family members 'reason' to spank. What I just wrote makes me remember that the child is going to learn best from my patience and consistency. He will learn that mama won't let him throw when she says not to. It doesn't really matter whether he likes that fact, and he doesn't need anything special done to him to reinforce it. Just stopping the behavior and restating the rule is enough.

[Wholly Mama]

I'm not really sure :shrug I was always in trouble fo my "defiant" attitude growing up (though I was a "good grl" I got angy w/ my mom's contolling sometimes and "talked back"). I'm still defiant today. I hate it when someone tells me what to do. It takes the joy out of doing it on my own. If dh tells me I have to do something, my first reaction is one of "oh yeah? MAKE ME!" I think it's leftovers from having a controlling parent.
So, perhaps "defiance" is something that's created by one who seeks to "control"?

[AmyDoll]

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So, perhaps "defiance" is something that's created by one who seeks to "control"?


Yes :tu This is what I think too - and since I don't want to "control" my child's behavior. I wouldn't label him as defiant.
Please don't think that I don't want my child to comply - it's just that I'm willing to take the steps to make it happen w/o "controlling" - like if I say don't throw it and he does. The toy just goes away - that's easy. If he was "disobeying" every request consistently - I'd figure there was something sooo much deeper wrong - not just "defiance"
Gosh does that make sense, at all? Or am I a totally naive mom of one little 2 yo boy?

[BluegrassMama]

[ If he was "disobeying" every request consistently - I'd figure there was something sooo much deeper wrong - not just "defiance"



Certainly, like Mary said, it can be a symptom of something more. But some of my boys have gone thru phases like this that were annoying but temporary.

[Irene]

lots of Amy's in this thread :giggle so I will use quotes ;)

I can hear my parents saying "How dare you defy me?!" and it's not a good feeling and they never really wanted to know why I made a different choice than the one they were asking me to. don't know
yup me too :yes

I always sort of thought of defiance as an intentional act against the parent. I *kind of* agree with that ;) but I think in the case of a two year old being told "dont throw that"...., well, their gonna throw it... I sure dont think thats an "intentional act againt the parent" I see it as a total 2 yr old thing, no impulse control etc. Dont think about thepink elephant. I just cant for the life of me think of a young toddler/child as defiant. Hey, I have a high needs (well thats an understatement ;) ) 4 year old and she tells me NO and turns around etc and people comment how defiant she is :mad that doesnt mean I let her "get away" with it, but I just dont see it as defiant :shrug

I'm still defiant today. I hate it when someone tells me what to do. It takes the joy out of doing it on my own. If dh tells me I have to do something, my first reaction is one of "oh yeah? MAKE ME!" :giggle me too :shifty the thing that ticks me off the most is when Dh *tells* me to do something... and I turn around and say "dont tell me what to do!" :blush

So, perhaps "defiance" is something that's created by one who seeks to "control"?

Yes thumbs up This is what I think too - and since I don't want to "control" my child's behavior. I wouldn't label him as defiant. I agree with this as well :tu

If he was "disobeying" every request consistently - I'd figure there was something sooo much deeper wrong - not just "defiance"
Gosh does that make sense, at all? Or am I a totally naive mom of one little 2 yo boy?
total sense! :tu I think you are right on. However, I didnt feel that way with my first 2 yr old and I really struggled with it, but I think now I have much more of a balanced view (IMO ;) ) and we are all happier for it :)

[jujubnme]

I started a new thread with a synopsis of some information I read on "counterwill"... what I would consider "defiance." It is a natural reflex that enables us to individuate. But sometimes our kids (and we, too) get stuck in being reactive (automatically wanting/doing the opposite of what someone else wants) instead of making a free and conscious choice to do what we think is best. The more energy you put into opposing/controlling the other, the more opposition you get in return. If you haven't already, read the other thread (I know it's kind of long). I think the link/quotes are really good---both the description of the problem and the recommendations for dealing with it. :)

[Irene]

oh good point andrea, off to find the other thread :)

[RealLifeMama]

lots of Amy's in this thread :giggle so I will use quotes ;)

I can hear my parents saying "How dare you defy me?!" and it's not a good feeling and they never really wanted to know why I made a different choice than the one they were asking me to. don't know
yup me too :yes
Yep, me three!

I always sort of thought of defiance as an intentional act against the parent. I *kind of* agree with that ;) but I think in the case of a two year old being told "dont throw that"...., well, their gonna throw it... I sure dont think thats an "intentional act againt the parent" I see it as a total 2 yr old thing, no impulse control etc. Dont think about thepink elephant. I just cant for the life of me think of a young toddler/child as defiant.

I wouldn't think of that example as being defiant either. I think if the child has an alternative reason for not wanting to obey, that they are not being defiant. The other day, I told me DS to put on his pants. "No!" he said and threw his pants down the stairs. That is not defiant to me because he wasn't acting against me, he was acting against the pants- he wanted sweats, not jeans. If it were "I hate these pants because you chose them" that is more an act against me. Does that make sense?

My parents always thought I was "defying them" but really I didn't care about them I just wanted something else. There is almost always another motive for behavior than trying to get at someone.

[Irene]

yeah that does make sense :) I guess in the pants instance I wouldnt take it personally (not saying you are saying that, just furthering the example ;) ) and just get on with it, no labelling him as defiant or whatever, just moving on. :shrug as opposed to people who I hear get all up in arms about how dare you defy me and then they get punished for being defiant and expressing their displeasure about the pants.... I think my thoughts are getting all muddled with my own baggage :shifty

[RealLifeMama]

yeah that does make sense :) I guess in the pants instance I wouldnt take it personally (not saying you are saying that, just furthering the example ;) ) and just get on with it, no labelling him as defiant or whatever, just moving on. :shrug as opposed to people who I hear get all up in arms about how dare you defy me and then they get punished for being defiant and expressing their displeasure about the pants.... I think my thoughts are getting all muddled with my own baggage :shifty


Yeah the "Trippin' " and Ezzo folk at my church would punish that for sure. I however, just "let my children get away with it" in that I will let him choose his own pants after that, LOL. (even tough I did address it was wrong to throw them, he needed to use his words, etc.)

[Irene]

:yes