Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn?

[Somertyme]

Sorry if this has been discussed here already. I haven't read the book, but I frequent the mothering.com website where it is frequently recommended. I'm wondering for those of you who have read it, what your opinion is from a Christian perspective. I'm debating on whether I want to buy/read it, because although the ideas sound attractive, I don't want to be influenced in the wrong direction. I just read on Crystal's site about TCS/NCP and it was good to hear her perspective on these. I have been thinking and reading a lot about discipline lately, and I want to really understand GBD as my son is getting older. I want to be as prepared as much as I can be without being permissive or punitive. So what are your opinions on this book?

[Can Dance]

If you look at GCM's statement of beliefs, Unconditional Parenting is not exactly at the top of the list of recommendations. basically, IMO, its extremely permissive parenting and letting your child run amok. the belief system also states that as a parent, you are not in authority over your children. so, say you ask them to clean up their toys (age appropriate level of course) and they refuse, well you take that answer and clean up the toys yourself. its bad bad parenting. the real world is going to have expectations on, whether it be the law or the job you are at. your boss isn't going to "clean up your toys for you" if you don't want to.

do I think that Alfies message of accepting your children and loving your children unconditionally is good? yes. but children need boundaries so they can feel safe in their environment. they certainly don't need to be in charge at the age of 1, which is what this theory proposes.

[UltraMother]

I really liked the book, to offer another perspective. He has excellent ideas about reevaluating common punitive strategies. The book is written from a secular viewpoint, tho, and has some strong words about Christianity (which is sadly justified. :( )

[cklewis]

has some strong words about Christianity (which is sadly justified. :( )

Is it Christianity that's the problem or Christians? I mean, come, come now. Let's be fair about whose to blame. I doubt that it's Christ or the Scriptures.

That being said, there's a common trope among those on the extreme permissive side of parenting advice to lambast the Bible. That's very, very unfortunate, I agree.

But again that's a human problem, not a Bible problem.

C

[Dana Joy]

didn't he write punished by rewards too- i like that one, but when i visited his site it was a little too humanistic for me

[lumpofclay]

I do have a punished by rewards article of his bookmarked. I haven't read his book. However, from what I've read online about his book and TCS/NCP, I'd stay away. I think it is permissiveness. I have found true GBD (gentle/firm correction and teaching) to be the best discipline strategy. It has really preserved our relationships within our family while helping me and DH parent our children.

[Joanne]

My complaints and criticism of Kohn is less with his words and *ideas* and more with his character. He conducted himself poorly in an interaction with Crystal. I won't say that determined my feelings towards him, but it sure cemented it.

I find his writing tone shaming, condescending and arrogant. (yes, I can see the smiles of irony forming on reader's lips. :no ;))

My biggest complaint, however, is the culture that grows around people who accept his work as the epitome of parenting theory achievement. I personally find his work to be long on theory and short on practical application. There is very little reality. There is also a lack of parent as authority, and that is a problem for me.

His disciples claim to be free thinkers, independent and autonomous, striving for mutuality in relationships. But I've found most of them predictable, cerebral and prone to group think dynamics.

Edited to add: I've found that a large percentage of people who embrace Kohn's work embrace an approach to parenting this is not a match for what we support in this forum (though we have members here who are closer to his parenting style than that supported here, they are respectful of our forum). I used to be an active member at mdc and I was soon wearied at the numbers of people who passionately presented non coercive parenting as THE design for parenting. Here is a link to our statement:

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=32243.0

Do I embrace and welcome challenges to the culture of adversity that surrounds parenting? Yes. Do I think Kohn's work will ultimately bring more good than harm? No.

[AmyDoll]

From my understanding Alfie Kohn himself is admently not TCS/NCP - the mods on the UP Yahoo Groups don't allow TCS talk (according to my Families for Natural Living Group)
His book isn't *bad* -- it's boring.
And he doesn't say anything that Crystal didn't already say - and Crystal says it better and from a Christian perspective.

[milkmommy]

From my understanding Alfie Kohn himself is admently not TCS/NCP - the mods on the UP Yahoo Groups don't allow TCS talk (according to my Families for Natural Living Group)
His book isn't *bad* -- it's boring.
And he doesn't say anything that Crystal didn't already say - and Crystal says it better and from a Christian perspective.

:scratch . He was very condensending of Crystal and hes deffiently is TCS/NCP :shrug
Deanna

[AmyDoll]

I do remember seeing the threads on his board about Crystal and the 5-steps. He was quite annoying and rude.

I also remember reading his book (and like I said, I thought it was boring compared to other parenting books I've read so maybe I'm not remembering well) but I thought his idea was setting children up for success - which to me sounds like GD. I don't remember him being overly "weird" like some of the TCS discussions on MDC tend to be. And the moms on my FNL group are pretty normal moms - and a bunch of them went to hear him speak on Friday or Saturday and had pretty good reviews. We've talked about TCS there on that board and I know those moms aren't TCS - I can't imagine them being cool with that kind of parenting advice. But I suppose it's all supposition on my part :mrgreen

Either way, I'm not endorsing his book or his teachings, at best he's redundant. At worst - he's an advocate of TCS which isn't a parenting style that makes sense in my world.

I think Crystal has a review on her blog - but I don't have her blog bookmarked. Anyone?

[milkmommy]

I haven't read his book I have visited the UP boards and find them pretty icky overall. I pretty much quit MDC to come here because tcs seemed to be taking over and I just couldn't agree with it.
Deanna

[Wonder Woman]

her old one is at http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Mama_Domain

the new one is on her site :-) http://sermons.aolff.org/

[Epieikeia]

Agree with everyone else...Kohn's teaching leads to permissiveness, which is just as detrimental (from a psychology standpoint) as extreme punitive parenting.

Alfie was also very rude to Crystal....which was totally unprofessional and discounting him as an authority in my eyes. :mad

[This Busy Mom]

I think his stuff is being misrepresented here because of it being popular with the TCP/NCP crowd and the blow up with Crystal (which I'd consider that personal :shrug ).

It's been mentioned that the book Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline is a better explanation of the parenting method he's promoting. For the harder to parent kids with problems handling frustration, The Explosive Child is another valuable resource.

Outside of those two books, I've prayerfully decided that I'll stick with Christian authors promoting grace and relationship because that is what I'm trying to achieve in my family.

I don't think you'd be influenced in the wrong direction with his book, but there's other sources out there. TCP/NCP'ers hang out on their message board and it's not worth the time for me to weed through the junk & get :mad about what they are saying, kwim? There are some knowledgeable people over there promoting the healthier side of things but you'll find that here in abundance ;) .

[UltraMother]

Still, there's no denying that an authoritarian approach has deep roots in certain religious belief systems...Further, while many religious people equate the idea of unconditionality with aspects of their faith, a case could be made, drawing on the holy books of Christianity and Judaism, that the deities in these religions offer the ultimate in conditional love.
Unconditional Parenting, pg. 102.

I get the feeling that he's not big on religion in general.

AFA the message board is concerned, I lurk there occasionally, and the book is hardly ever mentioned. :shrug But maybe other people find what they need there. I *was* a bit disappointed in his less-than-gracious responses to Crystal, but that's not my fight, and, if she doesn't mind my saying so, she's definitely able to handle her critics (one of those qualities I really admire her for :) ).

I've found his book very helpful in getting past some of my ingrained punitive attitudes, and for that I'm thankful. Now if he could just get saved so he could understand Grace! :tu

[Somertyme]

Thanks for the input everyone. I think I have been a bit curious about all the hype I've heard about the book, but want to be cautious at the same time. I have been reading a lot about gentle parenting lately, and it can be confusing to wade through all of the material out there and make judgements about what is right and what isn't. I read Crystal's review and it sounds like she pretty much covers the important material in her book (which I have ordered). I guess I was wondering whether his book would give me an important outlook on non-punitive parenting or whether it would try and give convincing arguments for permissiveness (which can sometime seem so attractive). I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this. I may read it from the library, but I don't think I'll order it. Thanks for the recommendation, Wake Me Up. Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline is on my list of books to read.

[cklewis]

I get the feeling that he's not big on religion in general.

ITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTA. :yes It's a pretty consistent critique in this POV.

C

[ArmsOfLove]

To just comment on his book (since I commented on the blow up already :giggle) I was bored because I considered it very very basic non-punitive stuff. Now, when I'm dealing with non-Christians who need to understand why punishments aren't the best way to go I do consider it worth suggesting as a read. I don't recommend it to Christians, and there are other books that cover the stuff more extensively imo. If a Christian is going to read it then I offer very big warnings about what they may encounter. I actually didn't find the book permissive,either, so much as what has been done with it on his boards and the groups that have elevated him to guru du jour. His failure to put a huge distance between him and them is a bad choice, imo, though I have to report that apparently there were some changes made on his boards after my experience there in an effort to control things a bit. I honestly haven't been back to see what it's like now so I can't comment.

[Christian_Princess]

I am actually reading through the book now for the first time.Some of his ideas are really insightful but overally, I am recieving an urging inside that his ideas are not completely aligned with the Bible.

Some of my issues are:
- too many choices given to children
- who is in control is a bit confusing
- not enough boundaries
- viewing limits as negative
- too much on one end of viewing human beings (I believe that we are all born with the ability to sin and thus we are not to be viewed as completely positive as he suggests)
- lack of authority in parent
- child too involved in decision making

I haven't read through this whole thread. I needed to clarify three things: who is Cyrstal? what does TCS stand for? And what does GBD (Godly based discipline? I think) stand for?

Like someone else stated, he does come across condescending in his tone of the book but there are some concepts presented that I do agree with:

- clearly communicating to child that he is loved no matter what
- respecting baby/child as a person
- doing with rather than a doing to attitude
- not using punishments or rewards as part of discipline
- moving away from a behaviorist method of discipline
- See behaviour as issue of underlying cause
- involving child in problem solving startegies


Initially when pregnant, I thought I'd be completely AP but since becoming a mother, I have discovered The Continuum Concept and I find that works better for our family. I am looking for more ways to apply tcc in our lives and I thought that UP would benefit us but it isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

[inesperada]

who is Cyrstal? what does TCS stand for? And what does GBD (Godly based discipline? I think) stand for?

Crystal (ArmsofLove) is one of our Admins and the author of Biblical Parenting. You can visit her website at www.aolff.org :grin She is the mind behind GBD (Grace Based Discipline). TCS stands for "Taking Children Seriously", which is a site that encourages non-coercive parenting.

[DogwoodMama]

I agree with your issues, I had similar concerns myself!


I haven't read through this whole thread. I needed to clarify three things: who is Cyrstal? what does TCS stand for? And what does GBD (Godly based discipline? I think) stand for?

Crystal is Crystal Lutton, a moderator/Admin here and author of Biblical parenting. Here is her website, it's a great resource: http://www.aolff.org/

TCS = Taking Children Seriously... it is a child-rearing movement that is not officially connect to Kohn, but there is overlap in terms of ideology and such... IMO TCS is much more "radical" than Kohn, at least he does have some common sense about some issues.

GBD is Grace-Based Discipline. You can read more about it at Crystal's website and throughout our forums here... practically-speaking it is in line with "gentle discipline" but it incorporates an awareness of God's grace towards us and how that informs our parenting and discipline decisions.

I also think he does present the "positives" that you list... however I think that what he talked about that I agreed with was not unique to *him* and have read similar thoughts elsewhere by authors that I agreed with more overall, if that makes sense. One book that comes to mind is "Kids are Worth It" by Barbara Coloroso- have you read that? There are lots of others out there too if you want to read more about those concepts. :)

[Christian_Princess]

Thank you for clarifying...I have bookmarked Crystal's website. I can't afford to buy any books right now and my local library doesn't carry her book:-( I would love to read her book...I'll keep it on my list of what to read.

[Christian_Princess]

To just comment on his book (since I commented on the blow up already :giggle) I was bored because I considered it very very basic non-punitive stuff. Now, when I'm dealing with non-Christians who need to understand why punishments aren't the best way to go I do consider it worth suggesting as a read. I don't recommend it to Christians, and there are other books that cover the stuff more extensively imo. If a Christian is going to read it then I offer very big warnings about what they may encounter. I actually didn't find the book permissive,either, so much as what has been done with it on his boards and the groups that have elevated him to guru du jour. His failure to put a huge distance between him and them is a bad choice, imo, though I have to report that apparently there were some changes made on his boards after my experience there in an effort to control things a bit. I honestly haven't been back to see what it's like now so I can't comment.


Why don't you recomend to Christians? Also, is there a link so I can read the debate that occurred...I'd like to see the points that came up from a Christian perspective.

[ArmsOfLove]

Well, it wasn't really a debate :think I was involved in an in depth discussion at his site. The problem was that someone was citing part of my work in total without proper citation and when I finally contacted Kohn about it and his total absence of moderation at his site where outright unacceptable behavior was going on within the thread he contacted me back and said that I was the only person he would consider moderating and went on to be incredibly rude. I do have the exchange posted on my old blog but I don't have the link handy. Apparently he has gotten involved more at his boards and some boundaries have been put into place to make his site safer for people to post who aren't TCS, which I think is a great thing. And many of the people posting there are really neat people who would probably fit in here and be more on the hands off end of things but within what we believe.

The reason I wouldn't recommend it to Christians is that he is so anti-religion/anti-Christianity that I believe he would cause many conservative Christians to question pursuing a non-punitive approach to discipline because they would equate it with worldliness. That isn't a fair connection, but I do believe it would be the obvious connection to many Christians. And since I believe the value in his book lies in the foundational ideas, and they are presented in other books that are not anti-Christian, I'd recommend those books first and then there's no reason really to read his book :shrug

hth :)

[Christian_Princess]

Yes thank you, it did help.