When do babies/children understand...

[Feorsteorra]

...that other ppl can feel pain?

This evening dh was holding ds and ds (who is 11 mo btw) grabbed dh's lower lib and "ripped it" in dh's words. Well, dh got REALLY mad at ds. He yelled at him really loudly and I could tell dh was very very mad. Not just upset, but angry. I can understand him being upset. Heck, I've gotten quite upset myself when ds bit my cracked nipple with his teeth of all things, but i wasn't actually mad at him.

Anyway, ds was screaming and crying. I think he was very scared. Dh actually refused to give ds to me and was holding ds so he couldn't even move his arms or legs. :( I asked dh if he was hurting ds because ds was crying like he was in physical pain :bheart, but dh insisted he wasn't doing anything to him.

Anyway, I finally convinced dh to give ds to me. But dh stayed mad for probably at least 20-30 mins after that. I told him ds doens't even understand that other ppl can feel pain, but dh argued and says he thinks ds does understand, and even if he doens't he "has to learn".

Dh has been out of work for over a month now and we're very stressed out about finances, so I know that's part of what's making dh angry all the time. But I dont think that is any excuse to take out anger on a baby who really didn't know he was hurting anyone.

Anyway, I was wondering at what age ds will be able to understand that other ppl can feel pain. Also, I think I just need advice on what to do when dh gets mad at ds. :bheart

[arwen_tiw]

I think it's a gradual thing as far as realising other people feel pain... I have read that it could be as late as three years that it makes sense to a tot. :shrug Jenna certainly reacts when I yelp, pats my arm and says, "kay mommy, s'kay" - but that's a reaction to *my* rection IYKWIM. If she scratches me or something and I don't yelp in pain or cry or anything then she doesn't react at all. If I tell her I'm hurt or that something hurts she stops doing it. :)

I don't think that's the point though, because even if DS knew he had hurt DH (heck even if he had set out to hurt!), the reaction was out of line. :( No child should be afraid of their parent, and DS being so upset must have been awful for you to watch. I would have had a very bad reaction to my DH doing anything like that, in fact if it were me I would have probably shouted at him to give DS to me NOW and walked right out without even waiting to put our coats on. :shifty

But I dont think that is any excuse to take out anger on a baby who really didn't know he was hurting anyone.

This is exactly it, whether your baby knew he had hurt hubby or not - we NEVER get to take our anger out on them. What is that teaching? That because adults are big they can do whatever they want? That if someone hurts you it is fine to hurt them back? :cry

:hugheart I don't know if I have any suggestions for you but I will be praying. I just wanted you to know how upset I am for you that this went on, and that I agree that it is *not* OK. :(

[Mamatoto]

Empathy takes years to develop. An 11 month old is simply exploring his world and wants to see what everything does. I agree, your dh's reaction was completely out of line. If he handles a baby like this, what will he do when an 18 month old clocks him in the head with a toy hammer? :shiver kwim??

[mommy2abigail]

Yeah dd is 11 months old and she nearly beats me up every day! I just take her hand and show her gentle touches on my face or arms. As for you dh, I would take aquiet time to gently talk to him. Explain that you understand that he is frustrated/stressed about other things, but his reaction scared you and ds, and it was inappropriate. It is not ok to hold a baby down when you are angry. It is best to put the baby down, cool off, and then tend to the baby. He should never ever keep your ds from you. My dh made that mistake once. I explained the whole mother bear thing to him, and he understood better after that. HTH

[SansSouci]

I forget how old dd was (sorry), but it was sometime between 14-24 months... When she would wallop on me, I would naturally react with "ow!". Well, one time she got me really good, and I actually cried. She felt really bad and offered to kiss it. THAT was when I realized it was good that I had been kissing her "owies" all that time! So... do you kiss your kiddo's owies? If so, maybe that might show some empathy... and maybe your kiddo will learn to reflect that back on you guys next time you say "ow".

(just brainstorming. sorry it's not super helpful.)

-Elizabeth

[Feorsteorra]

THAT was when I realized it was good that I had been kissing her "owies" all that time! So... do you kiss your kiddo's owies? If so, maybe that might show some empathy... and maybe your kiddo will learn to reflect that back on you guys next time you say "ow".
Well...if I can find his owie, yes I kiss it. Often, he's crying and I have no idea what he banged or pinched etc. But I do always try to comfort him...though sometimes i see him bump his head etc and it doesn't even phase him...like he didn't even feel it. In those cases, I just let him go about his business, because I don't want to make a big deal out of something that didn't even bother him.

Anyway, I talked to dh about this last night and I think he understands it was wrong to get so mad at ds. I told him if he ever feels mad at ds again he needs to give ds to me or put him down and walk away until he's calmed down, and he said "ok". I also explained to dh that just because I don't want him to get mad at ds doens't mean he has to let ds do whatever he wants. If ds hurts him, he needs to stop ds, say "Don't hurt daddy," and give ds soemthing else to do.

[Joanne]

Anyway, I talked to dh about this last night and I think he understands it was wrong to get so mad at ds. I told him if he ever feels mad at ds again he needs to give ds to me or put him down and walk away until he's calmed down, and he said "ok". I also explained to dh that just because I don't want him to get mad at ds doens't mean he has to let ds do whatever he wants. If ds hurts him, he needs to stop ds, say "Don't hurt daddy," and give ds soemthing else to do.

Can I take this to the next level? It's perfectly okay for DH to react with internal anger. In many cases (especially events physical in nature), anger is a first and instinctual response to being hurt physically. It's okay to get mad at our children.

Just like it's okay for them to be mad at us, the baby, the Sunday School teacher and the tv being off. It's how we respond to the anger that is the issue.

I am very touch sensitive. Telling me to "not be made at" a person (any person, any age) who hurt me is not only futile, its counter productive.

I'm not picking on you. :smile :D Really, that's not my intent. And I think the support and accountability you've set up is appropriate. But you can't (and shouldn't try) to change your DH's feelings about being hurt.

[Feorsteorra]

I understand what you are saying Joanne. I guess maybe I've been prhaiseing this wrong. I don't have a problem with dh's internal feelings, but I just feel it is wrong for him to yell so loudly at ds and make it very clear to ds that he is so angry and scare ds. Ds hates it when he feels that dh is mad at him. He loves his daddy and wants his daddy to be happy with him all the time. You are right; dh can't really change how he feels, but he certainly can change how he acts.