my first incident with punitive people

[Beauty4Ashes]

So I went to a women's Bible study today in spite of the wintry mix which looked an awful lot like snow that was falling. They are doing Nancy Leigh Moss' book Lies women believe. Pastor's wife asked me if my babies are good. I was kind of taken back. I said, well, of course they're good. It's not like they are out robbing banks or anything. Then she smiled maybe a bit surprised by my answer and said, yes, all babies are good. as if to say, what was she thinking. Somehow the subject of discipline came up. I said that it is so hard when dh and I can't agree on parenting/discipline. One of them said, yeah, when I was growing up, my father did all the discipline; when my dh was growing up, his mother did all the discipline. So we would be looking at each other, waiting for the other one to do the disciplining. Now though I'm just fine with spanking my kid with a spoon if he gets out of line. :td We went on to discuss a chapter on lies women believe about marriage. One of them was that we can change our spouses. And the pastor's wife said, yeah, if you marry a guy who grew up not being spanked and think that you can change him so that he will spank the kids, then you've got a problem. He won't change. :banghead Oh brother. Next week's chapter is on Lies women believe about Children. Anyone know what is Nancy Leigh Moss' take on this subject? I don't have the book yet, only photocopies of chapters 5&6. But just being around them for a couple of hours did have an effect on me. Bashar tried to climb out of his toddler seat while I was driving out of the parking lot. I really wanted to smack him for it. I didn't. But one of the ladies was coming out of the building and I sooo felt the pressure to do it, just to avoid looking permissive. And I felt the anger rise up in me that he made me look bad. But then I thought, come on, he is a little kid. What he does does not determine if I am a fit mother or not.

btw, both of them were really good. Danny did have to nurse though, so I nursed him there and then and held him for about half the study while he cried.
Tammy

[MarynMunchkins]

:hug

I don't know anything about the book, but it sounds like a great opportunity to remind them of age appropriate development. ;)

:pray you stay gentle in the face of opposition.

[Beauty4Ashes]

I have a feeling that I am really going to fly in the face of all that is "Christian" as far as child discipline goes. When one lady mentioned using the spoon to spank her dc, I said, well, what I do is "get off your butt parenting". They all laughed. I said, I redirect them if they start to get into something that they shouldn't. Or I remove them from the thing that they are climbing on. I didn't get into the not spanking part, since today's sections were about the lies women believe about priorities and about marriage. When I came home from the study, I found myself singing to my babies, over and over again. I just wanted to get that punitive stuff out of me and remind myself that these babies aren't my adversaries, but my children. I kept singing "my pride and joy my tiger boy" to Bashar and "I will love you my sweet baby, I will kiss away your pain, let me play with you forever. You've stolen my heart away" until those yucky feelings went away. I know that I need to be in a Bible study. Right now beggars can't be choosy. I know this church, I know that it is 2 stop lights from my house, and for now this is where I will stay.
Tammy

[Beauty4Ashes]

Oh me oh my, I guess I cheated by reading these reviews on Lies women believe...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802472966/002-8182224-5547258?v=glance&n=283155

It did feel like there were parts on the marriage chapter that didn't quite sit right with me, but I couldn't put my finger on it...I felt like a lot of it didn't really apply to me. I don't consider myself to be a nag who is out to change my dh. I try to speak to him with grace and respect. I try to submit to my dh, didn't realize that boundaries were also allowed until just recently. Something that she said about abuse kind of sounded Pearl-y/ctbhh to my ears. But everyone else there loved that book. I thought that maybe I was thinking too highly of myself when I felt that a lot of it didn't apply to me and that I couldn't relate to what they were saying. I will stick with the study because I need the fellowship, but it appears to be something that needs to be done with a grain of salt.
Tammy

[UltraMother]

Maybe you could suggest studying the BIBLE instead? Too bad you don't have more churches to choose from. :hugheart

[mwwr]

I can't help but wonder how many lies the author of the book believes :scratch. Let us know how the next chapter goes. It IS true that you can't change anyone but yourself, but you can have a powerful, positive impact on them. I'm :pray you will have such an impact on these ladies.

[Radosny Matka]

:hug2 :pray Stay strong!

[fourbygrace]

It did feel like there were parts on the marriage chapter that didn't quite sit right with me, but I couldn't put my finger on it...I felt like a lot of it didn't really apply to me. I don't consider myself to be a nag who is out to change my dh. I try to speak to him with grace and respect. I try to submit to my dh, didn't realize that boundaries were also allowed until just recently. Something that she said about abuse kind of sounded Pearl-y/ctbhh to my ears. But everyone else there loved that book. I thought that maybe I was thinking too highly of myself when I felt that a lot of it didn't apply to me and that I couldn't relate to what they were saying. I will stick with the study because I need the fellowship, but it appears to be something that needs to be done with a grain of salt.
Tammy


I find this very interesting as Nancy Leigh DeMoss is not married. I understand that she is teaching what she believes the Bible says about marriage, but I personally do not feel comfortable taking marriage advice from those who are single. Being single, she does not have children either.

I did like her book A Place of Quiet Rest.

I will pray for you as I think it would be challenging to be in the Bible study with those women and reading a book that you don't really agree with . :pray

Blessings,
Mary

[Beauty4Ashes]

I'm a little intimidated to be perfectly honest. The pastor's wife's oldest daughter will be 18, another lady has a granddaughter, another one is in her 60's at least, so her children are grown. Another one's oldest daughter is in high school or jr. high. I feel like, who am I to say something to these ladies who have so much more experience than I do? My 2 are under 2. There is one lady whose son is the same age as Bashar, but she may have one older than that. So this is what it feels like to stand up for gbd...

So some of you have also had that experience reading someone else's description of submission to a husband, like you feel that it doesn't apply to you. By that I mean that you were never the woman's lib, burn your bra, men are pigs type, so you took offense at the author implying that all women are that type...

I guess that I did take one good thing out of it. Make a quiet time to be alone with the Lord a priority and the rest will fall into place. I'd been lax in that area.
Tammy

[wombmate3]

:hug

My mother is really punitive, and I can really relate to feeling an effect after you left! When I am around my mom for any length of time and hear all her 'comments' on my children and how I should spank them I find myself being much more punitive with them. It's almost like it's a poison gas or something that rubs off on you! I too get angry with my kids when they act up in front of her, like they are making me look bad. I have to remind myself that they are just being themselves, and their behavior doesn't bother me at HOME so why should I expect them to sit and act like little statues at my mom's? :no It's so hard though, and I don't mind living far away from her now in this particular respect!

[MLBoys3]

Hi Tammy :hug
I just wanted to commiserate with you...I'm having the same problems. As far as Nancy Leigh DeMoss is concerned, you can learn more about her at her website, www.reviveourhearts.org. She is a great teacher and God definitely uses her in some incredible ways, but I agree that it is hard to take any advice on marriage and parenting from someone who has not "been there, done that". I would be willing to bet that she was raised in a home that supported corporal punishment. I have not had the priviledge of meeting ANY Christians that parent using GBD :( I live in NH and am having a hard time finding fellow Christians who parent the same way as me. It's very difficult. I felt so touched by your comment about feeling as though you really need to be in a bible study right now. I am so needing to interract with other Christians (my husband is not a Christian and neither are any of my family members or anyone from our circle of friends), but it's so hard to find the right church. I have been reading the boards here for quite a while but haven't posted much, as I'm sort of in that "where do I start" phase of life...so many issues! :banghead But I like to come here because it reminds me that you can still be a Christian and use attachment parenting. It's particularly hard when I see older Christian woman in the church who have a whole tribe of children who seem to be doing so well in their walk with the Lord and life in general and they all used corporal punishment and here I am struggling with my "wild ones"! I guess I just have to put it in perspective...I'm seeing the "finished products" and never saw these women "in action", right? LOL Anyway...sorry to ramble...I will :pray that we both find some like-minded Christians! :) I am praying for a mentor!
Melis

[hsgbdmama]

I have read her book and thought it was **okay** -- some of the "lies" that supposedly only women believe are lies that both men and women could believe. :shrug I'm thinking that I started tuning out about half way through the book because while she had some good things to say, it was leaning toward the Debi Pearl "YOU'RE the one always at fault"-no-matter-what-constant-guilt-trip :td :/

That's too bad that this group can easily turn everything toward "here's yet another reason we should spank our children!" :(

[Beauty4Ashes]

:nak I still don't have that book, but I did find this about the lies women believe about children...

http://www.familylife.com/articles/article_detail.asp?id=64

THE LIE: It’s up to us to determine the size of our family.
THE TRUTH:


God is the Creator and Giver of life.
Anything that hinders or discourages women from fulfilling their God-given calling to be bearers and nurturers of life furthers Satan’s schemes and aids in his efforts.
One of the purposes of marriage is to produce a “godly offspring.”
Childbearing is a basic, God-given role for women. Children are to be received as a blessing from God.

THE LIE: Children need to get exposed to the “real world” so that they can learn to function in it.
THE TRUTH:


Our task is not to raise up children who can fit into this world or merely survive it but to bring up children who will be used by God to change our world.
Like young, tender plants, children need to be protected from worldly influences until they are spiritually mature enough to withstand them.
The fear of the Lord and a vital, personal relationship with God are the best means of preparing children to withstand secular culture and to make a difference in our world.

THE LIE: All children will go through a rebellious stage.
THE TRUTH:


If parents expect their children to rebel, they increase the likelihood that they will do so.
God promises a blessing to parents who keep His covenant and who teach their children to do the same.
Parents cannot force their children to walk with God, but they can model godliness and cultivate a climate in the home that creates an appetite for God and is conducive to the spiritual nurture and growth of their children.

THE LIE: I know my child is a Christian because he prayed to receive Christ at an early age.
THE TRUTH:


Those who do not have a heart for God or any hunger for things of God and who have a consistent pattern of rejecting the Word and ways of God have no basis for assurance of salvation.
Parents who assume their children know the Lord, regardless of their lifestyle, may give their children a false sense of security and may not be praying appropriately for their children.

THE LIE: We are not responsible for how our children turn out.
THE TRUTH:


Parents have enormous influence in molding the lives of their children by their example, their teaching, and their leadership.
Each generation is responsible to pass on to the next the heritage of a heart that knows and walks with God.
Parents will give account to God for the spiritual condition of the lives He has entrusted to their care.
Each individual is responsible for his own walk and obedience. Regardless of what kind of parents he had, each person will give account to God for his own choices.

That doesn't sound so bad, hopefully I am worrying for nothing about whether spanking will be brought up...
Tammy

[Tengokujin]

Sometimes it works in these situations to just not engage unless you really sense that God wants you to speak. I use 'smile and nod" a lot.

I just skimmed that book recently--it didn't really"call out" to me to read it more deeply right now.

Good for you in taking steps to "clear your mind" of unhelpful thoughts toward your kids!! :)

[Knitted_in_the_womb]

Next week's chapter is on Lies women believe about Children. Anyone know what is Nancy Leigh Moss' take on this subject?


I don't directly know her "take," but I know that her books are highly promoted by a VERY legalistic group that was invited to my former church to do a "revival." That group promoted very punative parenting practices, and many of their members were big Gothard/Tripp advocates.

Bashar tried to climb out of his toddler seat while I was driving out of the parking lot. I really wanted to smack him for it. I didn't.

Bashar is not quite 2, so he's still in a harnessed carseat, right? If he is able to climb out of his carseat, you've got bigger issues than just the disobediance at the moment--in a crash, that seat is not going to provide him the protection it needs to. You should check to make sure the harness is properly snug on him ("snug as a hug"--with no bulky jackets on). I'm assuming he is forward facing (though my kids were often still rear-facing at this age--we grow 'em small in our house. LOL). In a forward facing position the harness straps should be "at or above" his shoulders. To minimize "wiggle room," you will want to use a set of harness slots that aren't very far above his shoulders--but if the seat is a "convertible" seat (can be rear or forward facing), you may need to only use the top slots, you should check the instructions for the specific seat.

If you do that, and he still is able to get out, you may need a different seat. Sometimes the design of over-head shield style seats prevent the harness from being snug enough. The hip straps on 5 point harnesses also sometimes help to "hold down" a child. You may want to consider purchasing a "combo booster" style seat--this is a seat with a 5-pt harness that can be used to 40 lbs, then you remove the harness and use the seat as a belt positioning booster to 80 lbs. Alternately, some kids are able to unbuckle the harness on a 5 pt harness (though I haven't figured out how--so far only my oldest DD can unbuckle the seats, and she couldn't do it until she was 6). In that case, as much as I hate to reccommend an over-head shield style seat, it can be helpful because it can be hard for the child to get to the buckle release.

Hugs!

Jenn

[MLBoys3]

Hi Tammy! :)
I thought of you when I received a few Christian parenting books the other day. I had gone online to order Heartfelt Discipline by Clay Clarkson (which was recommended her at GCM) and while I was online, ordered a few others. Among them was The Ministry of Motherhood by Sally Clarkson. When I received the books, I noticed right away that there was a nice review by Nancy Leigh DeMoss on the front cover of The Ministry of Motherhood. After reviewing the books, I realized that Clay Clarkson and Sally Clarkson are married. At least I'm pretty sure they are, because they both dedicated their books to their four children, all with the same names, and in the same order! :) Anyway...my point...(that would be nice, right?)...I'm hoping it is safe to assume that if Nancy Leigh DeMoss is supporting Sally's book so strongly (with a cover page review) that she would also support Clay Clarkson's teachings. Of course, all of this would be based on the assumption that they are both still married and teaching the same parenting principles! :) Just thought I'd share! :)
Melissa

[Marmee]

The Clarkson's are married and have written several books. Heartfelt Discipline is awesome. They also wrote "Educating Your Whole Hearted Child" in earlier years. They were once more punitive, but now have changed. I really appreciate them and their willingness to grow and change - even after printing some words about spanking in "Educating your Whole-Hearted Child". It has been a while since I read that one, but I remember it being VERY good. The discipline section did include a bit about spanking, but if I am remembering correctly, it wasn't a first line type of recommendation. The later book, "Heartfelt Discipline", does away with spanking all together :tu. Sally has been very encouraging to read - (Mission of Motherhood, and the Ministry of Motherhood). I have given them as gifts to more punitive friends and family. My brothers family did a BIG turn around! They stopped using EZZO completely!!!! Now they are on the path to GBD!!! I am so excited for them! The Clarkson's have a conference ministry and a website.

[Beauty4Ashes]

Here is something from Lies women Believe, from the chapter on children:

P. 177: The fact is, we are all natural rebels. Our parents were sinners, we were born sinners, and our children and grandchildren are born with the same inherent bent toward rebellion (Psalms 51:5; 58:3, Isaiah 59:2-8)

P. 177: (Re: Sarah Edwards, wife of the New England pastor Jonathan Edwards)

She had an excellent way of governing her children...She had need to speak but once; she was cheerfully obeyed; murmuring and answering again were not known among them. In their manners, they were uncommonly respectful to their parents...Quarreling and contention, wholly unknown...Her system of discipline was begun at a very early age, and it was her rule to resist the first, as well as every subsequent, exhibition of temper or disobedience in the child, however young, until its will was brought into submission ot the will of its parents; wisely reflecting, that until a child will obey his parents, he can never be brought to obey God. --The Works of Jonathan Edwards

I noticed that in her resources section, she mentions Shepherding a Child's Heart by Ted Tripp.

I just feel like I don't leave with the same blessing when I walk out of that Bible study as I did in the past. It had been nearly 3 years since I went to this church's women's Bible study.

In the chapter on Lies Women Believe about Marriage, it basically says that divorce is an absolute no no. I said to the pastor's wife, isn't there a verse which says that if the unbelieving spouse chooses to leave, then the believing spouse may remarry? She said, well, in that case, she probably shouldn't have married an unbeliever in the first place. (GULP) She was saying that when she did premarital counseling with a couple, she would tell them to never let the D word (divorce) be spoken, that if either of them have it in mind that if things don't work out they can just divorce, then they won't work so hard to please the other spouse. I was thinking of something that happened about 4 years ago. Dh was saying that if I could just accept that Muhammed was a prophet and that Islam was a religion sent from God, then we could work things out, I would not have to convert. I said that I could not believe that Muhammed was a prophet. He told me to get out. I took him seriously and started packing my things, even though it was nearly midnight. I didn't know where I would go, but I could not deny my faith. To this day dh reminds me that I started to leave him. I was told just recently that we have to figure out how we will raise our children, in what faith. He said that if it turned out that the children became Christians, he would leave me because he couldn't be the odd one out. And also he wants for us to be able to pray together as a family, what would I do if he and the boys are praying together and going to the mosque and I just sit on the side lines. Anyway, when she said, well, maybe the unbeliever and the believer never should have married in the first place because God's Word says not to be unequally yoked, I was in a lot of pain. Because I am doing my best to be a good Christian wife, but I still have this cloud hanging over my head.

This book is kind of causing me to wonder if maybe I am in denial about my own faults because I just can't relate to a lot of it. I don't think that I've believed the lies that women so commonly believe.

Tammy

[MLBoys3]

Good Afternoon :)
Tammy, I understand how you feel. It's so hard to discern God's view on certain issues when they are not laid out in black and white (or in this case, also red). I think that it's also extremely hard when you feel as though you are the minority in the Christian circle that you are spending time with. I don't think we can help but question ourselves and wonder if we are in denial when certain beliefs don't sit well with us or within our own comfort levels. The only advice to give you is to just keep seeking God's wisdom and praying on it (which can be so frustrating sometimes when we are not hearing from God on OUR time schedules - which as busy moms is - RIGHT NOW). I think that if you take an area where you might not be feeling comfortable and really search the Bible for verses that support your belief as opposed to the group or book, you will find the confirmation that you might be needing with regards to your questions of denial. I think I need to take some of my own medicine. It's so hard when our time is so limited and we just want all the answers NOW! LOL But in the meantime, I personally, would stop going to the bible study if I did not feel that God was blessing my time there. I would spend that time alone with God, searching for some answers and praying that God would lead to you to someone that you share similar beliefs with and that could mentor you. I feel that, personally, I have not been waiting on God to lead me, but rather it's more me and my need to find others to help me in my walk. In the meantime, I end up missing the person that I am so desperately trying to walk with. You know? Anyway, sorry if I've gotten OT, my brain is so scattered and crazy because I'm desperately trying to grow my faith and deal with so many "issues" on the homefront. Again, I should probably be spending my time in prayer and in the Word, right? :) Okay, my little ones are just not letting me type for anything so I'd better go before I lose it :hissyfit
Melissa

[mwwr]

How sad that the pastor's wife made such an insensitive remark about your marriage! :td Does she know your situation, or did she just put her foot in her mouth? Perhaps you should not have married an unbeliever (that's what Scripture says), but we all make mistakes, and that is what grace is for! I'm really proud of you for sticking by your dh when I know it must be difficult! Scripture is very clear about what we are to do once we already *are* married to an unbeliever, and you are doing it. God will honor your faithfullness and bless your family for it. I am praying for you and your dh and children.

[Beauty4Ashes]

That's just it, she does know that dh is Muslim, and I had in the past I think spoken to her about some of the struggles I'd gone through with him. But maybe it was just a foot in mouth thing, but it hit me between the eyes. I was contemplating going to her for some counseling, not marital, but I don't think she'd be the right person for me to see. Because she sees nothing wrong with spanking or yelling, it's like it's part of being a mom.
Tammy