obedience is...

[Beauty4Ashes]

doing what you're told, when you're told, with the right heart attitude. This is what I was taught in a Christian elementary school when I was maybe 7-8 years old. I think it was before Ezzo and Pearl, back in 1984 or 1985. I am wondering, is this biblical? Is it reasonable? I mean, I just swallowed it and tried to do all that I was told to do at that moment (fto???) without complaining. But I gathered from Dobson, that it is not a sin for a child to say to a parent "I don't want to do it now, could I do it later?", so long as it was said with respect. One of dh's pet peeves with me is that if he suggests that I do something, I will jump up from whatever I was in the middle of doing and do whatever it was he asked. He says to me, why are you being so concrete. Just when you get a chance, could you please do xyz. It's not an order, I am not your boss. It's hard for me to change this about me. I was so used to doing things that way for my parents, it's just something ingrained in me.

[milkmommy]

doing what you're told, when you're told, with the right heart attitude.
Sure that's obedience extreme obedience and IMHO a very dangerous place to be. I want my children to respect me to trust me I also want them with in standards set to question be to trust their own feelings and beable to express anger and sadness and to know "happy" isn't the only exceptale answer. Extreme obedience conisistanly sets everybody involved up for failure and sadly in many cases in dangerous situations that can be taken advantage up by abusers.
Deanna

[Beauty4Ashes]

Yeah, before I became a parent, I read Dobson because I had no idea how to raise my children as a Christian mother and figured that he was like the gold standard for Christian parenting books; I'd never heard of Pearl or Ezzo, but when I read TTUAC, I was :sick2, this is sooo icky. So I was impressed when Dobson said that it's okay to not always agree with your parents and to respectfully state your differences. It was like a light bulb moment for me. I always thought it was great because my parents were "more firm than others" but when I read Dobson, I realized that they were more the authoritarian type, not a good thing. Because I felt like I could not question them or disagree, so I did things that they would not approve of without telling them. I hid a lot of stuff from them, esp. when I started getting promiscuous.

[ArmsOfLove]

the Hebrew and Greek words translated "obey" carry the foundational understanding that the one being obeyed has earned the trust and respect of the one obeying and the one obeying is making a carefully considered choice to obey. I don't think that fits with the definition you were taught. You were taught to be unquestioning.

[Beauty4Ashes]

I am wondering, can this mindset of doing "what you're told, when you're told to do it" also lead to a person stopping short and perhaps a lack of creative thinking? Dh complains about how I and my family do this, not going the extra mile and taking the easy way out. Like for example if there are veggies and such that have been in the fridge for a while and there are brand new veggies that he just bought the day before, I'll go with the new ones and make something. Rather than find some way to use the odds and ends that are there first. Or when there is just a little bit of detergent left, I'll open the new one rather than add some water to the old one and get rid of it all ready. He was commenting on why I keep taking an almost empty bottle of detergent back up the stairs to the closet, rather than finish it and have some extra closet space. Or my not eating enough to gain some much needed weight. He said, probably it's because it's easier not to eat then to think of something simple to fix. He said, it's all about pushing yourself to do more. But the thing with "doing what you are told, when you are told" is that maybe the person will do ONLY what they are told, no more, no less. Or am I exaggerating on what this simple principle can do. Maybe I am just lazy?

[Cherish]

when should you expect a child to do "what they are told, when they are told, with the right heart attitude"?

It seems to me that this phrase encompasses the "ideal" that we shoot for as parents, but that certainly we cannot expect all small children to exemplify this all the time. We don't want robots who (externally) obey cheerfully to avoid punishment (and may internally be angry and thinking hateful thoughts), but we do want children who sometimes have bad attitudes and sometimes have good attitudes to obey cheerfully because that's what Jesus wants, almost all the time. Understand I am not talking about a 3 yr old. I am talking about, say, a 9 yr old.

I mean, *I* know that obedience to God with a cheerful heart is the ideal I ought to have for myself, and I ought to strive to not whine and complain when God asks me to do something. Sometimes I do, but I know better. You know? I wont be a good example for my kids if I whine and complain about my housekeeping and cooking duties. or if when I am asked to serve, I whine and complain. I should look at it as an opportunity to serve. It's hard, but all the work we do is really work for Jesus. So if my ideal for myself is to obey with a cheerful heart, when should my children understand that their ideal is to work toward serving with a cheerful heart?

Just askin

[Beauty4Ashes]

when should you expect a child to do "what they are told, when they are told, with the right heart attitude"?

It seems to me that this phrase encompasses the "ideal" that we shoot for as parents, but that certainly we cannot expect all small children to exemplify this all the time. We don't want robots who (externally) obey cheerfully to avoid punishment (and may internally be angry and thinking hateful thoughts), but we do want children who sometimes have bad attitudes and sometimes have good attitudes to obey cheerfully because that's what Jesus wants, almost all the time. Understand I am not talking about a 3 yr old. I am talking about, say, a 9 yr old.

I mean, *I* know that obedience to God with a cheerful heart is the ideal I ought to have for myself, and I ought to strive to not whine and complain when God asks me to do something. Sometimes I do, but I know better. You know? I wont be a good example for my kids if I whine and complain about my housekeeping and cooking duties. or if when I am asked to serve, I whine and complain. I should look at it as an opportunity to serve. It's hard, but all the work we do is really work for Jesus. So if my ideal for myself is to obey with a cheerful heart, when should my children understand that their ideal is to work toward serving with a cheerful heart?

Just askin


I don't know, but this mentality has been really problematic to me as an adult with my dh...and in other relationships that were not so good. I guess I internalized this too much, to the point that I thought that submission in marriage meant that I never spoke up or argued. Dh really likes for me to give my input on his big and not so big decisions. He wants for me to feel that we are equals, and in fact that I am the boss in the house. He wants for me to be responsible for a lot of stuff, researching the big decisions that we need to make, for example. So it bothers him when I start acting like he is the boss and that he is there to tell me what to do, it's an unconscious thing. On the other hand, if we are going to teach our children to obey with a cheerful heart, it has to start from us. I guess that the difference is that our children know that it's okay for them to not be robots, it's okay for them to disagree, but we have to teach them how to do it respectfully by modeling respect to/for them. Rambling...

[Irene]

sometimes have good attitudes to obey cheerfully because that's what Jesus wants, almost all the time hmm Im not exactly sure about that, but Im not a biblical scholar either ;)

I think we can still teach our children to do things cheerfully and without whining and still be respectful to them... it doesnt have to be a heavy handed "do what your told, NOW, and do it happily" type of thing :shrug

[Cherish]

irene, just two passages that came to mind from Philippians 2:

3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:



14Do everything without complaining or arguing, 15so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe

[Irene]

oh right! I guess I was just thinking in my head (obviously different than you were thinking ;) ) about how parents say "oh jesus wants you to obey happily" or whatever :/

I absolutely think its a great goal, and obviously my kids are pretty little, so its a long term for us ;) but thats what I was saying about I think we can teach them how to do things without complaining without being heavy handed :)

[ArmsOfLove]

So if my ideal for myself is to obey with a cheerful heart, when should my children understand that their ideal is to work toward serving with a cheerful heart?
Well . . . the verses you cited are great ones--and they are spoken to adult believers. I'm confident that by the time my children are adult believers they will understand this and embrace it as their own personal goal. In the meantime I model it to the best of my ability and encourage my children when appropriate. I certainly talk to them about this, encourage them to do this, but when they get it is going to depend on so many things--personal temperament, maturity, what I'm asking them to do, etc. It's a process.

[SouthPaw]

Very interesting, I was raised like that too.

Out of curiosity, how does GBD address attitudes? it seems like if we only model & then "help" (follow through) it does not really address their attitude at all? or is it just assumed that a correct attitude will appear over time, just from modeling/following through w/ requests? i am a little :scratch over this, probably because i am still wrapped around the concept of attitudes & "Adjust your attitude" that i was raised with...

[Beauty4Ashes]

Okay, I understand that I shouldn't expect fto from my children, and probably not first time compliance from them either because they are still too young. But what about for myself. I mean, I grew up in a non Christian home and pretty much fto was expected from me. And I could get in trouble for "taking that tone of voice with me young lady". How do I reverse this in myself? Like dh will ask me to do something and it's like a reflex reaction, I jump up from whatever I am doing and do whatever it is that he asked me to do. He doesn't like that. He says, I'm not your god or your boss. When I ask you to do something, it means when the time is right (i.e. if he asks me to call some company when I am in the middle of changing a dirty diaper or comforting a crying child, don't leave what I am doing to make the phone call), it's convenient for you, and if it seems reasonable to you. Don't say that you're going to do something and then not do it, if you don't want to do xyz, then just say so and state your reasons. I just can't seem to get past doing what you're told when you're told. Dh understands that this is a tendency that I have, but he just tells me to change it. I don't know how. Please, are there any resources available for those who were conditioned to obey on command but need to be deprogrammed???? For me it's not so much about doing things with the wrong attitude. It's the mentality that I am to obey orders that I have trouble with.

[Beauty4Ashes]

I seem to have an awful lot to say tonight. It seems like (for me anyway as an adult who was taught fto while growing up) that the whole fto thing makes me feel like a drudge, a slave. Jesus said that he that wishes to be first in the kingdom of God must make himself a servant of all, right. But He never forced anyone to act the way that He wanted. So if a follower of Jesus desires from his heart to be like his Master, then he will do as He said. I feel angry right now, big angry feelings that merit a comfort corner. I feel angry at my parents for teaching me this fto in the first place. Angry because while my fto did make their lives much easier, it is making my life as an adult much more complicated as far as relationships go. I feel angry at how people can twist the Bible and teach people. It makes me think of how dh said that people are making God worship Him and making Him do everything that they want (about Christians/hypocrisy) whereas his book has never been changed and people are following it. (a gross generalization I know) And I start to think that maybe he is right after all, what is stopping me from going his way afa religion goes. This finding out that fto is not true has hit me right between the eyes in a really rough way. And worst of all, as I was trying to learn to extend grace to myself, that I don't have to do this fto thing, I overreacted to something ds1 did (pouring water from the washing machine hose out on the floor and later letting the water out of spidie onto the floor in another spot) and wanted to make him feel really bad. It had been 17 days since I'd really lost it, I guess it's an improvement over 7 days. So I just feel like I lost part of my anchor.

[ArmsOfLove]

I recommend the book "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend. It will help you figure out how to do things willingly without resentment or feeling like a slave and how to set limits about what you are not comfortable or willing to do.

As for what to do about attitudes . . . It can really help with this to consider what an attitude is and what *really* can be done about it. At dictionary.com there were 5 entries that all basically said the same thing. I chose this one because I liked how it expressed the ideas. n 1: a complex mental state involving beliefs and feelings and values and dispositions to act in certain ways; "he had the attitude that work was fun" [syn: mental attitude] 2: position or arrangement of the body and its limbs; "he assumed an attitude of surrender" [syn: position, posture] 3: a theatrical pose created for effect; "the actor struck just the right attitude" 4: position of aircraft or spacecraft relative to a frame of reference (the horizon or direction of motion)

We're really only concerned with the first two. One is a complex mental state about your beliefs and feelinfs and values and dispositions. The second is the position or arrangement of the body and its limbs. I would suggest you can demand the second, but not the first :grin And I would also suggest that the second gives an insight into the first that I would like to keep available to me.

IOW, it's a fools paradise to that that because your child has learned how to stand and present themselves in a pleasant way that you approve of that they have similarly adjusted their heart attitude and disposition. But when the heart attitude, beliefs, disposition and values have truly changed the physical expression of them changes naturally. Therefore, I choose to focus on helping to shape and address the heart attitudes with lessons and prayer and open communication, together with my modelling my own attitudes and sharing my own experiences, etc. I also openly point out what their physical demeanor is revealing about their attitude and talk to them about changing their outlook as, ultimately, it's their responsibility.

The thing is, I don't consider their attitude to be my problem--but I do consider bad attitudes to be their future issues that I feel responsible for helping them tackle while they are still young and the attitudes are not deeply ingrained. And within GBD there are lots of tools and approaches (like Playful Parenting) for gaining cooperation, fostering fun and helping a child have a positive outlook.

hth

[TulipMama]

When I was a child, we memorized a lot of Scripture--including verses like the ones Cherish posted. Still, when I have work to do and I'm not having a good attitude about it, guess what comes to mind? And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily as to the Lord, and not unto men.

I believe that we do need to help our children see in themselves the negative attidudes and the positive attitudes. And I believe the memorizing Scripture is such an important foundation for them, for the future. I think the Holy Spirit uses what we have memorized to prompt our hearts and help change our attitudes.

[Cherish]

"Well . . . the verses you cited are great ones--and they are spoken to adult believers."

I disagree with this assertation.

Is it an "age of accountability" disagreement we have here? I do not believe in an age of accountability. I was Catholic before and Im Presbyterian PCA now and I've never been under the preaching of a pastor who taught age of accountability. So because there is no pre-set line drawn in my head that differentiates child from adult in the church, that may be part of my problem.

Where would you find information in scripture to support the fact that these letters were written only to adults? Anyone in the local synagogue would have heard this and it would have been applicable to them. There are scriptures that are specifically addressed to children... Colossians 3:20 is just one of them.... so if part of scripture is applicable for them, what part is not? It bothers me to think that the commands in scripture are only applicable if you are an adult believer. Were the ten commandments written for everyone or just the adult beleivers? How would anyone make a case for that, since included is the command to honor your father and mother?

"I'm confident that by the time my children are adult believers they will understand this and embrace it as their own personal goal."

So in your opinion, I cannot expect my child to do "what they are told, when they are told and with the right heart attitude" until they are adult believers. And only then if they decide that is an ideal for them to work toward? Or is it that there should be no consequence or discipline for not doing "what she's old, when she's told and with a right heart attitude" until she is an adult believer.

If I am disagreeing on the entire premise of obedience in childhood here at GCM, that would be very shocking to me. But maybe I am disagreeing.

[ArmsOfLove]

"I'm confident that by the time my children are adult believers they will understand this and embrace it as their own personal goal."

So in your opinion, I cannot expect my child to do "what they are told, when they are told and with the right heart attitude" until they are adult believers. And only then if they decide that is an ideal for them to work toward? Or is it that there should be no consequence or discipline for not doing "what she's old, when she's told and with a right heart attitude" until she is an adult believer.
You are completely misunderstanding me :shrug :scratch

As for the Scriptures being written to adults . . . they are written to the person reading and the Hebraic custom is that young children were not expected to understand or fulfill the Torah/instructions. They were to be steeped in them so that as they gained understanding they would embrace them for themselves. This is not an issue of age of accountability :shrug This is an issue of understanding. You are asking at what age your child will understand and embrace these for themselves and I'm saying that can't be known by anyone but the Lord.

What I'm saying is that external posture changes are not necessarily an indication of the internal heart changes and demanding the posture changes will not produce the heart changes. But when the heart changes come then the posture change will result so I prefer to focus my energies on ministering to and teaching and discipling the heart and trust that the posture changes will come in time.

Also, you are linking consequence and discipline as though discipline and consequence are interchangable but discipline is not reactive or punitive, but proactive and teaching. Of *course* you discipline! That is part of steeping a child in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. But, yes, I would agree with not having a negative consequence for a child who doesn't have a good attitude. That goes with not making someone feel worse and thinking that it will make them behave better.

Let me ask you this . . . do YOU do what you are told, when you are told, with the right heart attitude every time? Honestly? And if you are not doing that would it be productive for someone to demand it of you? Would demanding it of you truly change your "heart attitude"? or just your external posture? And if you change your external posture but not your heart attitude isn't that presenting a false face to the world and therefore lying about who you are?

[SouthPaw]

included is the command to honor your father and mother

i might be completely off track here... but what is it that makes this commandment directed at children? i have no problem applying this to adults.... especially because as an adult/parent,you truly realize what your own parents have done for you... and what you have put them through... why would you assume that this command is directed at children, simply because it mentions your father & mother? i still have a mother & father, even though i am grown!

just curious, if there is actually a reason behind this being directed at *children* specifically, then :O and i'll eat my words ;)

[ArmsOfLove]

I do believe it is for adults--and this comes from studying what "honor" is about and the command is actually for people to live according to the way of the Lord, and whether this was taught to them by their parents or not it will bring honor on their parents for them to be upright and Godly people. It is in the middle of the commands and it is fulfilled when all of the others are fulfilled--the Great Command of Loving God and Loving your neighbor will result in you honoring your father and mother with your life.

[Cherish]

"The Hebrew and Greek words translated "obey" carry the foundational understanding that the one being obeyed has earned the trust and respect of the one obeying and the one obeying is making a carefully considered choice to obey."


Can you point me to a source for this? I had to go ask my husband, who minored in Greek and Hebrew at Belmont. He found that the word is hypakouw in Greek. "Listen to. Obey. follow, be subject to. Of which it is used of parents, masters, and husband. When used with the dative (one of the Greek noun cases for the non Greek readers here ), it means that the thing to which one is obedient, they embrace in full surrender. In Ephesians 6:1 it IS used in the dative. Children, obey (hypakouw) your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
(standard Greek Lexicon by Bagby (Bower, Art, and Gingrich)).

The verses in the context of obedience of parents (Eph 6:1 and Col 3:20) are hypakouw.

In fact, hypakouw can also be used of the enforced obedience of the demons. (Mark 1:27). Of the elements (Matt 8:27), of a tree that must yield to a higher power (Luke 17:6).

One of the other words that is used for obey is peitho: to persuade, to win over, or in the passive and middle voices: to persuade or to obey. Peitho is closely related to pisteuo, to trust. The distinction there is that peitho is persuasion. The absolute obedience that does not requre persuasion is hypakouw.

Peitho is used in Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

Gal 5:7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth?

Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority and James 3:3 When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal.

[ArmsOfLove]

I don't understand your point :scratch I'm honestly not sure what you're asking :shrug

[Cherish]

I was quoting your response about what the word obey means in Greek in relation to children obeying their parents.

What I was pointing out was that the Greek word for obey in the verses concerning obedience is NOT about earning trust and respect. That's not what that word translates to according to the Greek lexicon.

So I wanted to know what your sources were for what word in Greek you were using to describe here:
The Hebrew and Greek words translated "obey" carry the foundational understanding that the one being obeyed has earned the trust and respect of the one obeying and the one obeying is making a carefully considered choice to obey."

and I showed you what I found.

Looks to me like it says for children to obey in full surrender to their parents.

[milkmommy]

Looks to me like it says for children to obey in full surrender to their parents.
I'm personally with Crystal on this but taking this too be true. Exactly how do you enforce this? What if they misss the mark? Are Parents never to be questioned? How exactly does a parent "change the heart"? :shrug

Deanna

[canadiyank]

Looks to me like it says for children to obey in full surrender to their parents.


Would it help to look at this like the "submission" verses which are written to the wife?...it does not say, "Husbands, force your wives to submit." Likewise, that verse is written for CHILDREN, not parents, it does not say, "Parents, cause your child to obey in full surrender to your parents." In fact, for parents it says, "Fathers, do not exasperate your children..." IOW, it is not our jobs to "enforce" obedience.

I think one thing that may help is if Crystal talked about her understandings of "compliance" and "obedience." This was extremely helpful to me as I wrestled with the same questions you are. :) I found I was often mistaking compliance for obedience...

[Cherish]

"You are asking at what age your child will understand and embrace these for themselves and I'm saying that can't be known by anyone but the Lord."

ok, I see your point here. Still, I wasn't asking when they will understand and embrace, I was asking when I could expect them to "get it that we mean for this to be the ideal".


"What I'm saying is that external posture changes are not necessarily an indication of the internal heart changes and demanding the posture changes will not produce the heart changes. But when the heart changes come then the posture change will result so I prefer to focus my energies on ministering to and teaching and discipling the heart and trust that the posture changes will come in time."

We dont want stepford kid robots whose heats are seething while they have a smile on their face.


"Also, you are linking consequence and discipline as though discipline and consequence are interchangable but discipline is not reactive or punitive, but proactive and teaching. Of *course* you discipline! That is part of steeping a child in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. But, yes, I would agree with not having a negative consequence for a child who doesn't have a good attitude. That goes with not making someone feel worse and thinking that it will make them behave better."

I'm just supposed to say "I understand that you don't want to do this, and I know it makes you frurstrated" when they are stomping around obeying me? Or what?


"Let me ask you this . . . do YOU do what you are told, when you are told, with the right heart attitude every time? Honestly? And if you are not doing that would it be productive for someone to demand it of you? Would demanding it of you truly change your "heart attitude"? or just your external posture? And if you change your external posture but not your heart attitude isn't that presenting a false face to the world and therefore lying about who you are?"

No, I do not "do what Im told with the right heart attitude every time". But I expect God to teach me to do it with the right heart attitude. And if it takes me a while to get it, I expect for the consequences to not be much fun. I mean, I do a lot of complaining and grumbling. Guess who else in my house is learning to do a lot of complaining and grumbling? Is that a consequence that I am recieving from God? Yes. I am talking to the girls about how I am working on giving them a better example as I am being taught that I need to be a better example.

I guess it sounds to me like you're telling me that teaching the child to obey with a right heart attitude is not something I should bother doing. That eventually they will obey with a right heart attitude because God has given them that desire. That anyone who tries to teach and begins to expect their young child to do what they are told when they are told and with a positive attitude is just creating a stepford kid robot and not addressing their heart. Can there be a way to address the heart issue in this process, or do you just have to lower your expectation of your child here?






OK, I have edited with quotation marks, and I have just come to a realization.

Nowhere in the 5 steps do you actually get obedience from the child. You ask, you repeat, you offer help, you help, and then if they start getting angry, you do the bear hug. But nowhere in there do you actually get your child to pick up the blocks by himself. You give him at least 4 chances to help before the bear hug. But not first, second, third, or fourth time obedience using the five steps.

Now I see what my problem is with not being on the same page with you.

[RealLifeMama]

I guess it sounds to me like you're telling me that teaching the child to obey with a right heart attitude is not something I should bother doing. That eventually they will obey with a right heart attitude because God has given them that desire. That anyone who tries to teach and begins to expect their young child to do what they are told when they are told and with a positive attitude is just creating a stepford kid robot and not addressing their heart. Can there be a way to address the heart issue in this process, or do you just have to lower your expectation of your child here?



It might be helpful if you use quotes in your above post because it is kind of hard to tell what is your statement and what is Crystals.

I am not a scholar or anything and you know that my DD and I have our share of issues. I complain and grumble a lot too and I am working on the exact same thing because my DD picks up on it too so we are both working on it, just like you and your DD.
But in reference to the above statement, I honestly don't think it does any good to address "heart issues" in the heat of the moment and big feelings. I know it doesn't with me. When I am upset about something, and my DH says "Look at yourself and your attitude" my behavior doesn't get better and I just get mad at him because I feel like he isn't understanding my feelings. It is more productive to have my feelings validated, have a reminder to express my feelings more appropriately, and receive help and encouragement to do what I don't want to do, and then when it is over, and at a neutral time, we can talk about the attitude and heart issues. I think that it is best if I do the same with my DD. I have to give her space for her feelings and help her deal with them in the moment, help her to obey, and then we can talk about it later.
Also, we are training the heart every day in neutral times with scripture memorization, teaching time, and just going about our day, and during times of discipline that are not steeped in negative emotions. Sometimes we can nip it in the bud with reminders of what we have talked about and learned at neutral times, but sometimes we can't. I don't feel like that is neglecting heart issues.

[Cherish]

well said, Amy. We do train during non big feeling times. And while I have never said "you need to obey with a cheerful attitude" like some Pearl-ites I know, I do get irritated with stomping off to go take said object to her room. Do I thank her for her obedience even with a bad attitude? I always thank them for their obedience when they take their plate to the sink or whatever, but if they stomp off and do it, I will ask why she is mad. And we will dialogue about it until we get to the root cause of her anger.

[canadiyank]

Can there be a way to address the heart issue in this process, or do you just have to lower your expectation of your child here?

I was raised with the "happy attitude" thing. I carried *great* antagonism toward my mother, which only in the last couple years (ok, since I had kids, lol!) I've worked through. I felt misunderstood and as though my opinions and feelings didn't matter about pretty much anything. Attitude is obviously very important - but I want my kids to be honest with their feelings. Feelings are neutral, not good or bad, and as you noted, we work on the expression of those feelings at a neutral time. I believe the heart issue is much more than just how one complies to requests/commands from parents, and we talk often about pleasant attitudes, lower tones of voices, polite words, etc. I give her "scripts" and we practice at neutral times.


Nowhere in the 5 steps do you actually get obedience from the child.


You are training your child, teaching. And you do get compliance, just not in the form you are thinking of...I struggled with this, too, especially the "help" part...I would get very upset and be angry at "helping" her, instead of seeing that my help was training her to comply. And really, this does work, my dd is 4 and I honestly cannot remember the last time I had to do the "5 steps" - but we did a lot at 2. :yes

[RealLifeMama]

well said, Amy. We do train during non big feeling times. And while I have never said "you need to obey with a cheerful attitude" like some Pearl-ites I know, I do get irritated with stomping off to go take said object to her room.

If you don't want her to stomp off while she does it, you can acknowledge her annoyance and then tell her to take it without stomping and use her words instead. Just give her a script. "I am feeling mad I have to stop _______ and take this to my room right now but I will because you told me to. " or whatever you want her to say. Stomping is an outward expression of a feeling, so the feeling so she just needs to learn other ways of expressing her feelings.


canadiyank
that is a good way to think of the 5 steps, I think.
They are easier to follow with an easier child. A child like my DD (and maybe Jeni's older daughter) can prove to be more frustrating with them. But with my son, I rarely even have to say "You are having a hard time" and he is right on it! But I still think it helps my DD realize that "resistance is futile" and it doesn't lead to disobeying, which repeating a request over and over and also just letting the child choose to do it or not does. I guess it could be thought of of conditioning, but punishment is conditioning also. I see one as "I better choose to do what mom says or I will have to go to timeout which I hate" and one is "Well, mom will see to it that I do it anyway, (and my DD still thought she was is picking up blocks, even when I was holding her hand, but we don't do this now that she is older ) so I might as well go ahead and do it" I guess I just choose the latter as a form of training/conditioning.

[Cherish]

[ I believe the heart issue is much more than just how one complies to requests/commands from parents, and we talk often about pleasant attitudes, lower tones of voices, polite words, etc. I give her "scripts" and we practice at neutral times.


You are training your child, teaching. And you do get compliance, just not in the form you are thinking of...I struggled with this, too, especially the "help" part...I would get very upset and be angry at "helping" her, instead of seeing that my help was training her to comply. And really, this does work, my dd is 4 and I honestly cannot remember the last time I had to do the "5 steps" - but we did a lot at 2. :yes


I will have to get some scripts going with my older daughter.

And Amy is correct in stating that it depends on the child's personality. I dont have any behavioral problems with Lily. She is compliant. She is told to pick up something and either says ok the first time, or ok the second time. It just hardly takes anything to get her to do what you ask. And she has no attitude issues. But my firstborn does. She is a vastly different child.

[canadiyank]

And Amy is correct in stating that it depends on the child's personality.

:yes

[RealLifeMama]

And Amy is correct in stating that it depends on the child's personality. I dont have any behavioral problems with Lily. She is compliant. She is told to pick up something and either says ok the first time, or ok the second time. It just hardly takes anything to get her to do what you ask. And she has no attitude issues. But my firstborn does. She is a vastly different child.



Well, at least we had the more challenging ones first, to sharpen us, LOL. And to not give us such huge rude awakenings! :giggle
It also helps me to realize it isn't me necessarily, except for when I look at DD, I see me, and that makes it so hard, because I think, oh, Lord, please, please, please don't let her grow up to be me! But then I am reminded that my DD might have the natural tendancies to be like me (impulsive, disorganized, insecure, etc) she is going to have the advantge of growing up in a Christian home, knowing Christ from a young age, and being raised up in the admonition of the Lord with the foundation of God's Word, with parents wh pray for her, which I never had.

[ArmsOfLove]

I don't know what resources you are using for researching "obey" in the Greek and the Hebrew but if you look up the words at blb.org or the Greek/Hebrew Study Bible's Lexical aids you will see what I'm saying. The point, as Meghan mentioned, is that there is no instruction to parents to make their children obey. And the Hebraic thought about obedience is that it is voluntary and considered. You wouldn't obey someone telling you foolishness. And the command to the children is to obey their parents "in the Lord" and this is spoken of in connection to the command to Honor your father and mother. That is about living rightly and a life pleasing to the Lord to bring them honor with your actions. Also, in the context of what Paul was addressing they were dealing with the issue of not caring for their parents in their elderly years.


"You are asking at what age your child will understand and embrace these for themselves and I'm saying that can't be known by anyone but the Lord."

ok, I see your point here. Still, I wasn't asking when they will understand and embrace, I was asking when I could expect them to "get it that we mean for this to be the ideal".Again, each child will be unique. That's the thing--GBD isn't a formula. My older 3 understand this though my almost 4yo still needs lots of help.


"What I'm saying is that external posture changes are not necessarily an indication of the internal heart changes and demanding the posture changes will not produce the heart changes. But when the heart changes come then the posture change will result so I prefer to focus my energies on ministering to and teaching and discipling the heart and trust that the posture changes will come in time."

We dont want stepford kid robots whose heats are seething while they have a smile on their face. Good :)


"Also, you are linking consequence and discipline as though discipline and consequence are interchangable but discipline is not reactive or punitive, but proactive and teaching. Of *course* you discipline! That is part of steeping a child in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. But, yes, I would agree with not having a negative consequence for a child who doesn't have a good attitude. That goes with not making someone feel worse and thinking that it will make them behave better."

I'm just supposed to say "I understand that you don't want to do this, and I know it makes you frurstrated" when they are stomping around obeying me? Or what?I honestly don't know why you draw that conclusion from what I'm saying :scratch I am having a hard time with the filter you seem to be reading me with :think Depending on the age of my child I might comment, "Hey, try again" and prompt them to work on their attitude. I do thank my children for doing what they were told even if they have a bad attitude because they are doing what they are told. But I don't act like it's okay for them to have a nasty attitude. There is no suggestion that being rude or nasty is okay in my home.


"Let me ask you this . . . do YOU do what you are told, when you are told, with the right heart attitude every time? Honestly? And if you are not doing that would it be productive for someone to demand it of you? Would demanding it of you truly change your "heart attitude"? or just your external posture? And if you change your external posture but not your heart attitude isn't that presenting a false face to the world and therefore lying about who you are?"

No, I do not "do what Im told with the right heart attitude every time". But I expect God to teach me to do it with the right heart attitude. And if it takes me a while to get it, I expect for the consequences to not be much fun. I mean, I do a lot of complaining and grumbling. Guess who else in my house is learning to do a lot of complaining and grumbling? Is that a consequence that I am recieving from God? Yes. I am talking to the girls about how I am working on giving them a better example as I am being taught that I need to be a better example. I would argue that this is a natural consequence and not something the Lord is *doing* to you. He's not making your children copy your behavior; they just do that. That's how God made our children to be--which is why it's more important to *be* who we want our children to become than to try and make them be who we are not even yet.

I guess it sounds to me like you're telling me that teaching the child to obey with a right heart attitude is not something I should bother doing. That eventually they will obey with a right heart attitude because God has given them that desire. That anyone who tries to teach and begins to expect their young child to do what they are told when they are told and with a positive attitude is just creating a stepford kid robot and not addressing their heart. Can there be a way to address the heart issue in this process, or do you just have to lower your expectation of your child here?I have a higher expectation for my children and their behavior than most of the punitive parents that I know. I do teach my children and work on their attitudes and I've stated as much already in this thread. I'm not sure why you don't seem to hear that.

It is true that there is a difference between compliance and obedience. Obedience must be done by the choice of the person obeying. Compliance can be demanded and enforced. I have a very high standard of compliance and my children comply with my instructions or I help them comply. But obedience can't be demanded and NO WHERE in Scripture am I instructed to demand it. Obedience is about them; compliance is about parenting.






OK, I have edited with quotation marks, and I have just come to a realization.

Nowhere in the 5 steps do you actually get obedience from the child. You ask, you repeat, you offer help, you help, and then if they start getting angry, you do the bear hug. But nowhere in there do you actually get your child to pick up the blocks by himself. You give him at least 4 chances to help before the bear hug. But not first, second, third, or fourth time obedience using the five steps.

Now I see what my problem is with not being on the same page with you.
You really don't get it and I don't know how else to say it. The 5 Steps isn't about teaching obedience--it's about gaining cooperation and, if necessary, forcing compliance. "Help" is me being willing to come alongside them and make them successful at what they have been instructed. Because they know that if they don't do it themselves I will help them, they are very quick to do it themselves if they are able. I help my toddlers a lot, I help my preschooler on tough days, I can't remember the last time I had to help my 6yo :scratch And even with my toddlers most of the time the first step is all that is needed--I issue an instruction and they do it.

Our home is incredibly peaceful most of the time; my children have great attitudes and are incredibly cooperative. A friend came to wash dishes for me while I was laid up last week with pneumonia and my 6yo and 3yo came and asked me if they could help her and I told them how to go ask and I was told they did most of the work. They were so proud of themselves. My 8yo didn't help because he had a bad headache but he apologized for not feeling up to doing more.

We do lessons about attitudes. When my dd is being surly I might tell a story about a little girl in an identical situation and how she responded and my dd will get the object lesson and change her attitude. When I'm in a bad mood my dd will come and offer to pray for me to be in a better mood. When my children aren't getting along we stop everything until they are. If someone isn't ready to forgive they take a break on a couch until they are ready and then they can join in with the family again.

So I'm not really sure what you are confused about.

[ArmsOfLove]

I've been meditating and praying and talking with dh about this all evening while we were out in order to try and figure out how to share what I believe about this topic. I hope it comes out as gently as I am hearing it in my head :giggle

I truly believe, and it has been my personal experience, that when a parent shifts the focus away from developing relationship and on to trying to demand obedience from their child they will create an adversarial environment that provokes their child to anger. In trying to force their child to comply with Paul's instruction to children they violate Paul's instruction to adults. When that happens the child's anger is what is called a "bad attitude" and when a child is accused of having a bad attitude because his own parents have provoked him to anger he has been set up for failure. Punish him for that "bad attitude" and you have created an adversarial dynamic that is going to crush some children and enrage others.

The *only* times I have had problems with bad attitudes with my children have been the times when dh and I were overstressed and attempting to control our children as we sought to control our environment. The worse our children's attitudes got the more we tried to demand they stop. What changed everything was for us to realize that the problem was ours and not our children's--it's not our responsibility to control our children, it's our job to control ourselves. We aren't responsible for our children's obedience, we are responsible for insisting on compliance when necessary and developing the relationship in which discipleship takes place. We aren't responsible for forcing our children's attitudes to be this or that, we are responsible for teaching them about their attitude and *how to* change their attitude and for fostering an environment where they are not provoked to wrath. As soon as we back off and refocus and get the emphasis back on relationship there is an almost immediate change in our children's perceived "bad attitudes" and they are back to their loving, social, cooperative and wonderful selves.

I have found that my children's "attitude" is a wonderful barometer for what is going on within our home. I cannot make our home be something it is not by demanding my child behave a certain way. But when I focus on making our home what it needs to be my children are a beautiful reflection of that to the world.

[Irene]

wow, your last post totally blew me away! :wow even though I have heard it before, kind of, I guess the way you said it really struck me! :wow :tu
and also what I have needed to hear this week :shifty that ones a printer ;) goin' on my fridge for awhile ;)

[Joanne]

What a provocative thread! I'm very much on the same page as Crystal on this topic, though I know we use different examples and words to describe our ideas and experience in this regard.

I expect my children to obey. That is I expect them to do what I say, and when I say it. I *also* expect them to delay, whine, complain, stall and even do it with resentment on occasion. I expect them to be human and also to be their age and maturity.

I expect to model both biblical obedience and sin. Not intentionally modelling sin, mind you, but because I don't always approach housekeeping aspects of homemaking with a cheerfull attitude.

I can no more force a heart attitude on my children than God would impose one on me, uninvited. I can not sustain willing obedience without the Holy Spirit. My own resources fail me. Obedience is tied into the fruit of the Spirit, not the fruit of Joanne. And my children's heart - centered obedience to me or God isn't of their own volition, either, but also of God. I can not force God into my children. I can only model what having a relationship with Him is like and I can *not block* the consequences of not having God.

So in your opinion, I cannot expect my child to do "what they are told, when they are told and with the right heart attitude" until they are adult believers. And only then if they decide that is an ideal for them to work toward? Or is it that there should be no consequence or discipline for not doing "what she's old, when she's told and with a right heart attitude" until she is an adult believer.

No, I can't expect that of anyone. I don't do it. I can have a standard of behavior in place in my home, and strategies to meet that standard. But to expect a child to happily, consistently obey? No, no more than I expect that to happen with me, my sister, Crystal, Deanna or my husband.

When the standards for my home are not being met by my children, I have a whole toolbox with which to approach that problem. What tools to use varies greatly according to the situation, age, circumstances and personality. I discipline my children *constantly*. Today, for example, we've had precious few issues. But I had to discipline them all day. I'm tired, but we've not had one raised voice, punishment or imposed consequence. Indeed, we discussed lifting a few in place consequences - with talk on when they'd return and for what reasons.

I expect them to *mature* and *grow* in their ability to obey willingly. I don't expect them to supercede their age.

mean, I do a lot of complaining and grumbling. Guess who else in my house is learning to do a lot of complaining and grumbling? Is that a consequence that I am receiving from God? Yes. I am talking to the girls about how I am working on giving them a better example as I am being taught that I need to be a better example.

I would say that (and I'm right there with you, having had a house on the market for 5 months!) that it's not *God* imposing the misery, but the natural consequence of not being open to the Light of His Son in the dark moments of housekeeping. Quite honestly? I chose to be miserable because in the moment, I value that more than hate the sin of grumbling.

The misery I feel is the natural consequence to the attitude with which I keep my home.

I guess it sounds to me like you're telling me that teaching the child to obey with a right heart attitude is not something I should bother doing.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the implied judgment in this quote. :shrug I would say that teaching a child to obey with a right heart is not something I can force, coerce, impose, consequence or punish into my children. I can force compliance (and do), but I can't *teach* the "right" heart attitude. It comes with desire, maturity, wisdom, age and God. Not Mom, Dad, or even within the child themself.

Nowhere in the 5 steps do you actually get obedience from the child. You ask, you repeat, you offer help, you help, and then if they start getting angry, you do the bear hug. But nowhere in there do you actually get your child to pick up the blocks by himself. You give him at least 4 chances to help before the bear hug. But not first, second, third, or fourth time obedience using the five steps.

This is an unfair criticism of the 5 steps. The 5 steps are a parenting tool. They do not define or limit GBD and they are not a panacea or to be used in every discipline situation. They are, like any other discipline tool, something to be used situationally and age appropriately. They work much more quickly in action than in words. And it's been my experience that most people who find the 5 steps inappropriate have not used them as *part* of their discipline approach.

Here is another link to more words I've written on FTO:

http://morejo.blog-city.com/first_time_obedience.htm

[Quietspirit]

Joanne and Crystal,

You've articulated my thoughts exactly and so much more eloquently that I could have. Thank you :clap