Physical punishment advocated at askdrsears.com ?!?!?!?!?!?!

[Soliloquy]

I could barely believe this when I read it. So VERY different from everything I've read in Bill & Martha's books. Has anyone ever heard this viewpoint from Jim Sears? It seems that he has different beliefs than his parents about discipline and punishment.

http://askdrsears.com/faq/db13.asp

Here's a partial quote (I added the bold):
Then our son came along, and we found that threats and time-outs were like using a squirt gun on a forest fire. We learned that we needed to use some sort of physical punishment in order to get his attention. There are many forms of physical corrections: spanking, soap in the mouth, leather belt, vinegar, pinching, hot sauce on the tongue… Some of these sound harsher than the others, but they are all essentially the same in that they inflict a negative physical feeling upon the child. We used one of the “milder” forms of physical punishment, but we followed some general rules: We gave a warning, “if you don’t stop doing ______, then you will get a _______...” “You did it again, so here comes the consequence”.

EDITED to add the quote.

[AmyDoll]

:scratch I wonder what the milder form of physical punishment that he used is? a pinch? that seems the "mildest" but ugh!

[Katydid]

:jawdrop :hunh

That is not something I expect to read on the Dr. Sears website! What is going to there? :shrug :td

[milkmommy]

:jawdrop :no2 That was quite disapointing and disturbing. :hunh :scratch

Deanna

[ArmsOfLove]

that is horrible and icky and ewwwww :td

[Hannah Jo]

:hunh

Vinegar on the tongue not enough of a shock?

[Aisling]

Wha?? :hunh wow, I really never expected to see that. :(

[mandyrberry]

there seams to be soemthing going on with Dr. Sears's stance on several things recently. this is like the 4th think i have read that has made me upset. HOT SAUCE!!!! what gives?

[GodisGood]

You need to understand that Dr. William (Bill) is THE Dr Sears and that Dr. Jim and Dr. Bob are his sons. They may take a slightly different approach. However it's nothing that a good ol' letter writing campaing can't resolve. ;)

[Wonder Woman]

ok, here's what I wrote

I am appalled at the so called "discipline" advice found at this link on your website.
http://askdrsears.com/faq/db13.asp
To suggest or seem to condone pinching, hitting, or otherwise terrorizing an innocent child is absolutely appalling!
I am a proudly attached mama to a wonderful 2 year old, and I would never have expected this type of garbage from any child of Dr. Sears.
Dr. Jim, I will no longer be able to whole-heartedly endorse this website until that link is removed. I will continue to promote your parent's books, as I always have. Your father's discipline advice is sound, positive, and not demeaning to children.
I sincerely hope that you will take down that appalling bit of "wisdom", apologize to your son, and work on rebuilding the attachment that (as your parents have admonished moms and dads all over the world) can be so very easily broken by such harsh, punitive tactics.
Please, consider listening to your parents on this one. After all, they quite literally wrote the manual on child rearing!
Sincerely,
Rebecca

[ArmsOfLove]

awesome letter. Rebecca! :tu

[inesperada]

:jawdrop :hunh

:tu to Rebecca, though!

[erinee]

I emailed them, too. It's not as good as Rebecca's letter, but I figure we need numbers. I"m so disappointed. I guess it's just a lesson that people will always disappoint. I have a tendency towards hero-worship, and Dr. Sears is one of those heros. I know the elder Dr. Sears didn't write this, but I"m sad he let it on the site.

:bheart :(

[BornFreeBaby]

I wonder if the older Dr. Sears knows that this is on his website? Maybe the sons are sort of taking the reins with his online forum? :think

:hissyfit Didn't a baby just die (in the news) from a mom putting hot sauce in his mouth? :hissyfit :banghead

[MarynMunchkins]

:(

[MidnightCafe]

I am astonished. :hunh I just went & looked at the page on spanking & it seems to totally contradict the advice in the link. :scratch

[MidnightCafe]

I sent a letter....

[Havilah]

I smell a rat :no2

[Maxwill129]

I am astonished. :hunh I just went & looked at the page on spanking & it seems to totally contradict the advice in the link. :scratch


Yeah, I noticed that too, and yet in the link Dr. Jim says that he's not going to go into the "spanking is correct" (or somethink like that) because there's enough of that in the discipline part of the site. That sounded to me like spanking is condoned at askdrsears.com

Shannon

[Bonnie]

:popcorn for an update on a response from the Sears.

[RealLifeMama]

:popcorn

[Mother of Sons]

I think it's fake. I went to their FAQ section from the main page and it's not there.

[ArmsOfLove]

well either it's fake or it was removed? :shrug

[RealLifeMama]

I think I agree with MOS.
I went to the site and searched for hot sauce and I didn't find anything but "chokable foods"

Lisa, did you find this on your own or did you see a thread like this somewhere else?

[Mother of Sons]

:popcorn

[Bonnie]

I saw it too, on their site, some time back.

ETA http://www . askdrsears . com/faq/db13.asp

[milkmommy]

I think it's fake. I went to their FAQ section from the main page and it's not there.

I found it :shrug
Deanna

[Mother of Sons]

Where?? Oh, never mind.. I found it :( How sad.

[This Busy Mom]

Well :( .Didn't the boys learning anything from their parents?

[greenskittle]

OT, MOS, your fake web page made me :giggle

[purplerose]

:no2

This is sad. All's is going to make people think is "See, AP doesn't work. Even their OWN kids are saying there needs to be harsher discipline!" :td

[BluegrassMama]

I am astounded and sickened.

I have askdrsears as a link on my blog, but it is coming down today. I can just hear it now, "Your parenting guru sees a place for leather belts and hot sauce. Obviously everybody knows this is how you raise children."

Has anyone heard anything from/about Martha Sears lately? And is it possible that the elder Dr. Sears is unwell?

[MidnightCafe]

I have a dumb question related to fake pages. I see how someone could make a a fake page, but not a fake web address. I don't see how you could get it to appear under a domain name that someone else owns. Could someone make a page that began with gentlechristianmothers.com? I'm just asking so I can be aware if I happen to run into things that appear to be fake in the future. I assumed it was real because it began with askdoctorsears.com. *Could* it have been false under that domain name?

[milkmommy]

I assumed it was real because it began with askdoctorsears.com. *Could* it have been false under that domain name?

I don't think this is a fake :no2 and no the URL would have to be diffrent in some way.

Deanna

[MidnightCafe]

Oh, Deanna, I know it isn't fake. I located it from the home page also. But I wondered if it was even possible for it to be fake with the same domain name.

[milkmommy]

Oh, Deanna, I know it isn't fake. I located it from the home page also. But I wondered if it was even possible for it to be fake with the same domain name.

No I think the domain name would have to change even just slightly

Deanna

[This Busy Mom]

Did anyone inform the LLL or other groups (I don't know of any others offhand) that endorse the Sears books and sell them on their website that might be interested in the fact the sons are endorsing corporal punishment? That would probably get things straightened about.

[RealLifeMama]

OK so I found it too.
I think what disturbs me is that it makes it sound like the threat of punishment is what stops the undesirable behavior, rather than typical Sears methodology of getting to the root of the problem, etc.
It makes it seem like all other parenting methods of "You get this consequence if you don't stop behaving this way, " KWIM?

And it also reiterates how when people find out I don't spank the whole "Well, you must have easier children than I do" sort of attitude, and the whole "Different things work for different children" sort of thing. Yes, all children are different, but that doesn't mean that causing them discomfort should be in our toolbag of discipline techniques.

I feel disturbed by the new Baby Sleep Book also, because it is being protrayed as if to say that the closeness provided by co-sleeping isn't all that important to AP, and it really is! It isn't just where baby sleeps, it is sharing sleep that is important.

[Mama Calidad]

I sent an e-mail. :sick :cry :jawdrop

[slingmamaof4]

:hissyfit Didn't a baby just die (in the news) from a mom putting hot sauce in his mouth? :hissyfit :banghead


True or not true??????? :hunh :cry Hot sauce in a BABY'S mouth!!!!!!!!!!! :mad :sick2

[ArmsOfLove]

:hissyfit Didn't a baby just die (in the news) from a mom putting hot sauce in his mouth? :hissyfit :banghead


True or not true??????? :hunh :cry Hot sauce in a BABY'S mouth!!!!!!!!!!! :mad :sick2
Yes--the link is in the In The News forum

[phathui5]

That is really disappointing.

[righteous mama]

Well, I'd like to look into this a bit more. Dr. Jim has never suggested that I use any physical punishment with my girls...and I even spoke with him about the difficulties we've had with Mary. He has never suggested anything that didn't line up with my expectations of the Sears family.

This confuses me. I really need to find out a bit more about this.

[Quietspirit]

I am really saddened by this. :( That site is THE site for AP parenting to the mainstream Christian parenting world. To see physical punishment endorsed there sets the entire AP philosophy back in the eyes of the world (especially the punitive Christian world).

Marcella, I'd love to hear what you find out from Dr Jim if you feel comfortable sharing that. :hug

[Quietspirit]

The link isn't working for me. Where is it on the main Dr Sears site?

Thanks :)

[righteous mama]

The link is not working and I cannot find it from the main site. From the advice given by Dr. Jim in other instances, I do wonder if the site was hacked in some way. It is very much not his style. I'm thinking of writing an email as a patient or calling. I'll let you know if I hear anything back.

[ChristmasGirl]

so is it still up? the link doesn't work, and i check all the discipline/behavior FAQ and didn't find it....

[mom2threePKs]

:popcorn

H*ll hath no fury like a group of AP moms finding spanking in the context of Dr. Sears....

Magan

[Quietspirit]

It's not working for me and I can't find it on the site anywhere.

Perhaps the site was hacked?

Or, if it was indeed written by Dr Jim, perhaps he has re-thought his position? (nothing like a good letter campaign ;))

I am suspecting that the site was hacked. I'd like to hear what you find out, Marcella.

[Irene]

me too, Im really curious what happened!

[flowermama]

Well, it's in google's cache...

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:8tXBbftzCSEJ:www.askdrsears.com/faq/db13.asp+&hl=en

[BluegrassMama]

Well, then I am hitting my knees, praying for Dr. Jim. Sounds like he is in trouble, either in his philosophy or 'just' his reputation! I pray its a hacker.

:pray :pray :pray

[BluegrassMama]

Another Q: are all those forms of punishment abuse legal in all 50 states?

[righteous mama]

I sent the email. I know that they are a busy office and if I called I may not get a good thought out answer. I wanted to give them the respect of being able to answer well. I also let them know that I have never had anything to worry about with Dr. Jim. He has always been very gentle, etc.

After reading the cached FAQ, it makes me wonder if it is a matter of not explaining himself well. I can see using physical consequences, like the you hit you sit rule. Maybe that is what he was trying to explain...poorly...but we all have times when we try to explain something and fail miserably at it.

I'm joining in prayer that this will be answered quickly and resolved. I'm very interested in what Dr. Jim has to say.

[mamatogands]

:popcorn

[expatmom]

:popcorn

[snlmama]

I am suspecting that the site was hacked. I'd like to hear what you find out, Marcella.


I suspect a hacker. The question was way too long and rambling and I"d think they'd edit it down some for the FAQ. :think At least I hope it was a hacker. :/

[Mama Calidad]

I am suspecting that the site was hacked. I'd like to hear what you find out, Marcella.


I suspect a hacker. The question was way too long and rambling and I"d think they'd edit it down some for the FAQ. :think At least I hope it was a hacker. :/

Has anyone received a reply to their e-mail? I haven't yet. I'd think if it was a hacker, a "Thank you for bringing this to our attention. Our site was hacked and the page in question has been removed." would be easy enough to C&P into e-mail replies. I'd think that they'd want to get that response out ASAP to avoid more e-mails with the way the internet runs with these things. :think I hope it was a hacker, though.

[Allison]

Wow. I can't wait to hear the response. I hope this was just a mistake.

[Irene]

I know grasping at straws here ;)

miss-behaving child just a typo or spell error on Dr jims part? or a clue? :giggle



I'd think if it was a hacker, a "Thank you for bringing this to our attention. Our site was hacked and the page in question has been removed." I was kind of thinking along those lines... :shrug

[cklewis]

:popcorn

C

[BornFreeBaby]

I was just reading this in Dr. Sear's "The discipline book"

"By now you should realize that our position on spanking is clear: don't. But we are experienced enough to realize that some loving, nurturing, committed parents believe in spanking as part of their overall discipline package. We are also quite aware that regardless of our advice against spanking, some parents are going to spank their children. For these parents, the best we can hope for is to help them spank in a way that will be less abusive. Consider these suggestions."

Then it goes on to give advice on how to "apporoapriately" spank, such as not spanking in anger. So, if you only looked at the latter part, it would sort of look condoning to mild forms of spanking. :shrug

But there should be the same info on the website that is in the book, whether or not dr. jim spanks. :scratch

[righteous mama]

I actually don't think it's condoning spanking. I think what they are realizing is that you can't change everyone's mind. You can try, but you can't get them all. I think that they are attempting to guide those who believe in spanking Ezzo or Pearl style to understand that it is abuse and that you don't have to whip your children to spank them. I think they are trying to minimize the abuse of spanking...if the parent is going to spank.

[Sara]

:popcorn

[MidnightCafe]

I haven't gotten a reply to my e-mail, but I noticed that the question is gone from the FAQ's. Good work! Even if the site was hacked, it's good for them to get lots of e-mails about it to take care of it quick.

[Soliloquy]

WOW, what a response from you mamas! I guess you're all as upset as I am, but that's no surprise.

For those who asked, I did access this page from the main website. A friend of mine was asking my opinion about flu shots for her kids, and I remembered there was great advice in a recent Ask Dr. Sears newsletter, so I was looking on their site. I clicked on FAQs and saw the topic--I was EXPECTING to read a condemnation of making kids drink vinegar as a punishment and I was SHOCKED at what I read, as everyone else was. It does appear to be gone, now. I searched for "vinegar" which was in the original question, and didn't find it.

I do hope this was a hack job--I'm anxiously waiting to see what kind of response we get. It's awesome that a GCM has Dr. Jim as her pediatrician--hopefully we can get a straight answer that way. :popcorn

If this was legitimate, it's very :cry.

[milkmommy]

Okay I read this from him on timeouts http://www.askdrsears.com/faq/db8.asp yes its learning towards "punitive" but the tone is totally diffrent then what was posted in the article questioned. In this one he seems to use time outs and positive reinforcment as his tools why in the article posted he seems to say timeouts with his son are pointless. They do seem to condrdict each other??? :scratch

Deanna

[BornFreeBaby]

Dr. Sears also talks about Time-outs as a correction strategy "that works much of the time". in his discipline book, but he does say that is should not be used as a punishment. but then talks about using a "naughty step" to sit on. :eek

I think Dr. Sears tends to ride the fence on alot of issues.

[Desert Rose]

H*ll hath no fury like a group of AP moms finding spanking in the context of Dr. Sears....

:laughtears

[Aisling]

sent this earlier today...I'm still :scratch over this one.

Dear Dr. Jim,

I was troubled to read your advice to a parent regarding physical discipline issues. It seemed that you were actually condoning feeding children hot sauce or vinegar, putting soap in their mouths, or pinching them in order to combat bad behavior. At best, your answer was ambiguous, stating that you used a "milder" form of physical punishment, but offered no warning against the more dangerous forms of punishment mentioned. This is very misleading advice, and it appears that you are actually putting your stamp of approval on all the forms of physical punishment that you listed. Many of the things that you mentioned as being "essentially the same" are cruel, if not dangerous, ways to deal with a child's behavior issues.

I am deeply disappointed in the way you handled this, and no longer feel that I can in good conscience direct others parents to your website for advice. I respectfully ask you to consider removing this answer from your FAQ section.

Sincerely,
Ashley (my last name)

[BeckaBlue]

:no2

:popcorn

[JJsMom]

:popcorn Now I'm hooked on this little waiting game! I really hope you get a response soon!

[Radosny Matka]

:scratch :popcorn

[Gailmegan]

:popcorn

[UltraMother]

:scratch

[kris10s]

:popcorn