Serious question about CIO

[mykidsmom]

I have a question about the no CIO method.

When our ds was younger there were times when we would let him CIO. Mainly on the days when he hadn't had his regular naps or regular sleep at night and he was just grumpy. He never cried for long and when he woke, he was as happy as a Jay Bird. There would also be times when he'd get mad at something (maybe we wouldn't let him play with something) and we'd let him cry and then he'd get over it and move onto something else. To this day ds has always been a wonderful sleeper. He hits the pillow and he's out. He's also a pretty stable kid. Not high maintanence and truly happy.

Now dd on the other hand.... We don't let her CIO. Never have. She doesn't sleep through the night. She doesn't talk, instead screams when she wants something (ds was clearly speaking what he wanted at this age) and she also throws fits alot more than ds did. I am starting to wonder if this is what people mean when they say, "....or you'll spoil the child." :sad2

I don't want my dd to grow up into a brat. :heart I mean, we've all seen these kids. Kids controlling their parents, screaming, throwing fits, etc. Basically future Jada's (on Brat Camp).

So here's my question: Don't kids need to cry at times? I'm an adult and there are times when I just want or need to cry. Crying is so theraputic sometimes. Not only that but I really believe sin exists from birth. The baby throwing a fit when you won't give them the curling iron, is a show of sin. We can deal with it by patting them on the back and saying, "there, there" but in our experience it doesn't work. She's only more driven to get the object and throws a complete fit. Redirecting her attention doesn't work and eventually we have to just give up and let her get past the tears.

Anyway, here's where I'm at right now. Please, give me some input-something to help me piece this no CIO method together. :) Thank you. :)

[Katiebug]

I believe there are times when an older baby or toddler might need to cry. Sometimes they show frustration about not getting what they want by crying, and that doesn't mean you aren't doing your job. And sometimes they need to release a little steam before going to sleep.

There is a difference between CIO and crying "in arms". CIO isolates the child, refuses to tend to his or her legitamate needs, and is for the purpose of "training" a child to sleep. Letting a child cry in your arms, or with you in the room, recognizes the fact that the only option at the time is for the child to have a cry, but you're right there for her.

[greenemama]

Letting a child cry in your arms, or with you in the room, recognizes the fact that the only option at the time is for the child to have a cry, but you're right there for her.

i agree.

:hug i think that sometimes babies are just inconsolable. and when i'm feeling that way i normally appreciate the attempts at comfort that others give to me. it may seem like, "if she's crying when i'm here and when i'm not, why bother being here?" but think about your own feelings -- if your dh said, "you will cry whether i take the kids to the park, make dinner and give you a backrub or not -- so why bother extending kindness toward you when you're going to cry anyway?"

:hug it's frustrating when you want a solution that fixes everything but there isn't one to be found.

[mamatogands]

I also think there are just big personality differences between kids, and I suspect that your two kids are showing some of their temperamental differences as much as anything. :shrug :hug2

[Countrymama]

:hug
I agree with pp's. I think the main thing I have learned from an experience with CIO with ds is that CIO is ALONE. You are leaving your child alone to cry and forcing them to deal on their own. However, if you help your child cope with their feelings, you are not leaving them alone to deal with it and shutting a door on that communication. Because, yes kids do cry sometimes and you have no idea what else to do for them! I also see a huge difference between my two kid's temperments and I know that some of the stuff dd does is totally more exhausting and frustrating than what ds did and it can be hard. I have learned that she will settle more easily and overall be in a better mood if I respond to her needs and sometimes that means holding her while she cries. I think the point is just that CIO isolates the child and responding to them in any way while they are crying or upset, doesn't do that.

[milkmommy]

Well first remember kids can be very diffrent you don't know if your DD would respond to CIO and likly your first would have done great with out CIO methods. I'll use my own dd as an example we never CIO with her and shes an excellent sleeper excellent napper and discipline problems are almost non existant iin our home. Seriously its probably been weeks since I've had to address anything.
I also would like to know what you mean by never CIO and how old is she (shes talking right?) because there is a diffrence between setting age appropiate boundries and following through and respectfully giving them the tools and sometimes space to be successfull and saying too bad and shutting a confused child in their crib /room to get over it..
If my DD cries because she wants something she can't have (which imho is hardly a sin).. I validate but also state fact and we move on.. :shrug is she sometimes still upset ? sure its not my job to stamp out her feelings it is my job to give her tools she can use to model patience and tollorence and to set age appropiate firm boundries that will allow her to grow.

Deanna

[flowermama]

Am I understanding right that you are worried that not CIO may be influencing your daughter's behavior in a negative way? I'd like to reaffirm that not CIO is a very good thing. :tu Not CIO is a wonderful gift and blessing you have given her.

The other ladies have explained more what CIO is, but I'd also like to post here how we define it in the GCM posting guidelines. In rule number two, it explains that "CIO is when you leave your child unattended to cry themselves to sleep." It further explains and afirms that "Babies cry and that is too be expected, but on this board we do not support leaving a crying baby by themself." So, as a mama mentioned above, it has to do with refusing "to tend to his or her legitamate needs, and is for the purpose of "training" a child to sleep."

In regards to crying itself, it's definitely not healthy to try and stiffle each cry and give them everything they want or to have the mindset of doing whatever it takes to help them stop crying. Most assuredly, as an infant all their needs and wants are the same. At one year old they aren't the same, though. :shifty And when we set boundaries with them, even when they are appropriately kind and firm boundaries, sometimes they will feel frustrated, sad, etc., and this will lead to crying.

I'll share a little about my experience to add more anecdotal "evidence" to this discussion that not CIO doesn't make a child "spoiled." :) My little guy is just about to turn one (on Wednesday) and is just starting to act more frustrated about certain things (hasn't like diaper changes for awhile, though :giggle). He's my fourth child, and all of them are so different from one another! He's a really "good-natured" baby, persistent, yes, lol but good-natured. He was never left to CIO. On the other hand, I did do CIO with my first child when she was a wee babe, and when she was one year old she was very spirited (notice -- not spoiled! but spirited! :-) ). :shrug Anyway, I believe that a child's personality plays a huge part in this. And also I know more about discipline now, thanks in part to the wonderful ladies here :grin, and that has helped immensely.

It can be really frustrating to parents when our children act so very upset. (((Hugs))) When children get upset it is important to respond with empathy -- in a way that makes them feel heard and understood. It can be good to say something like, "You are feeling sad because you can't have that. _____ is not for {child's name], but this is for {child's name}." As you help them label their feelings they will learn, as they grow older, what those feelings are, and you can help them learn appropriate ways to express their feelings.

Their feelings are not sinful. They just come from inside them, they bubble up... frustration, anger, sadness.... they don't know how to handle it or deal with it in ways adults would deem to be appropriate. They don't even know or understand what their feelings are. For them, crying would be very age-appropriate, and as they grow older it's our job as parents to help them learn about their feelings, to affirm their feelings and to help them feel heard and understood, and to help them learn other ways to express and handle their feelings.

Anyway, those are just some thoughts. :heart :hugs

[ArmsOfLove]

Jeri already addressed this beautifully :tu I just wanted to reiterate that "no cio" is not the same as "never cry". If you are jumping through hoops to try and "make your child happy" or see to it that she never cries, that would fall into permissiveness and, yes, that can train her to throw fits and make scenes to get her way. This is very different from honoring her feelings by not leaving her all alone to deal with her big feelings. If the answer is no, it's no, but that doesn't mean you have to be disappointed alone :) Yes, I sometimes just need to get a good cry out, and so do my children. A crying baby is not an indication of mom having done something wrong--it's an indication of an individual being upset about something ;) Reflect that, honor that, validate that--no need to fear it :)

[MarynMunchkins]

Let me just say, as someone who did do full blown CIO with a child, and than had two more who didn't sleep for forever (Ana was over 4 :eek), no matter what the results, CIO isn't worth it. It's traumatic for everyone involved, and not a lasting solution.

:shrug From someone who's been on both sides of the fence. :)

[mykidsmom]

Thanks everyone. You've given me a lot to think about. :)

I hadn't thought about not CIO in the terms of just not letting them be alone when they do need to cry. :think I'm not a permissive type, never have been, but I find myself catering to dd waaaaay too much. Trying to find ways to make her happy. It wears me out. I'll have to think about just letting her cry but not leaving her, instead of desperately trying to make her happy. But whew :jawdrop that cry, like a screaming Banchee sometimes. :giggle I'll have to think about investing in earplugs....

Oh, I also want to make clear that I don't believe a little one's "feelings" are sin, but when they handle them in a bad way, like wacking mom in the face, that's sin. :)

Anyway, thanks for posting everyone. :) I'll be doing alot of this :think :think :think and hopeful some of this :idea :giggle

[Countrymama]

. But whew :jawdrop that cry, like a screaming Banchee sometimes. :giggle I'll have to think about investing in earplugs....

I know what you mean....dd reaches levels I have never heard before. I used to think ds was bad but man oh man....this girl can SCREAM! I feel like it is vibrating in my brain. :crazy

[milkmommy]

Oh, I also want to make clear that I don't believe a little one's "feelings" are sin, but when they handle them in a bad way, like wacking mom in the face, that's sin. happy smile
I think thats age, a child has limited social skills and limited problem solving skills. For her hitting while something we should teach her not to do hitting is an age "appropiate" respnse. Now if you who have reasoning skills know and have learned right from wrong choose to hit another than I'd say yes thats sin.
Deanna

[ArmsOfLove]

Oh, I also want to make clear that I don't believe a little one's "feelings" are sin, but when they handle them in a bad way, like wacking mom in the face, that's sin.I'm really not sure how you are defining sin, but by the definition of sin this is not. It's not fun; it's not ideal; it's not something you want to have them do; but it's not sin :shrug

[DogwoodMama]

Oh, I also want to make clear that I don't believe a little one's "feelings" are sin, but when they handle them in a bad way, like wacking mom in the face, that's sin.

I agree with Deanna... we are still to be teaching our children, who do not even always understand what an appropriate response is at this age, what is right and wrong, they are still learning... there is a point it is sin, but I don't think your dd is there yet. :/

[Quietspirit]

In order for an action/attitude to be sin, the person involved would need to know and be capable of understanding both right vs wrong and cause/effect. In my opinion, babies and young children are not capable of either. They may be born with a sin nature (according to some theological viewpoints), but they are not able to "SIN" until they are old enough to understand/reason.

So, my young 18 month old hitting me on the leg this morning while I was finishing the dishes because he wanted to nurse and I told him to wait a few minutes....that wasn't sin...that was frustration handled in an immature manner. My response= "I know it is hard to wait (with a gentle rub on his back)" while finishing the last 5 dishes. Then, we nursed. ;) He was not punished. He was not made to wait longer to teach him a lesson. The boundary was merely enforced gently but firmly. There was no "catering" to his upset feelings but there was respect and modeling.

[mykidsmom]

I realize people have different viewpoints on sin. I think we are cabale of sinning pretty early. :shrug That's my opinion. It doesn't change the way I deal with my baby though. I understand, and hopefully most people do, that you can't impose punishments on a "baby" for hitting. I would think most people would understand that a baby needs to be lovingly taught right from wrong. :) I think dd is capable of sin, especially when she bites or hits (as she has been taught not to) and then gives me that look of, "uh-oh is mommy going to tell me no-no"? Or when she sneaks into something she's not supposed to, the whole time watching me to see if I can see her.... :giggle

But now that we've gotten into this subject of sinning and babies, I'm going to pose this question on Theology Board. I'm curious now, about where people stand on this. :) Let's continue the conversation there, if you like, and leave this thread to the OP, questions about "not CIO".... . :)

[milkmommy]

I realize people have different viewpoints on sin. I think we are cabale of sinning pretty early. don't know That's my opinion. It doesn't change the way I deal with my baby though.
But it does change the way and does so in a big way.. I'll look for your other post and try to answer more :hugheart

Deanna

[mommylori]

i have never let my kids cry it out, nor have I allowed any of them to scream and demand things. Those are 2 diffrent things completely in my opionion. I do teach them to express themselves. If my son is throwing a fit for something I tell them no, I do not respond to that. I just look at them adn say how do ou ask for something? I am a big believer in using words adn I dont\'t reward behavor, for instance at the grocery store if jonah where to throw himself down on he ground for a candy bar, I would pick him up tell him I am sorry he is upset, and carry on with him in my arms, but I wouldn't give him the candy bar and tell him you can't have that, and that is not how you ask for things.
But I always saw CIO as leaving your child in a room alone to cry themselves to sleep. I could be wrong.
Yes children do need time to cry or grieve and have emotions, that is very important, but having a mom there to talk them thru it helps, I always say I am sorry you are... mad, sad or what ever the issue is at the time.
Ad for a child sinning, you have to be aware that what you are doing is a sin for it to be a sin. I do not think a small child is capable of sin, they are still inocent and do not understand sin. Until you understand what a sin is i don't see how you can sin?
Lori
Lori

[illinoismommy]

Well while we're asking questions.... is this CIO:

If you're sitting there by your babies crib rubbing their head and singing but they are still in the crib? I remember I would pick him up if he got really going but otherwise I left him in and gave him contact and consolation. Is that CIO? Someone told me it was, but that didn't make sense to me because I didn't leave him there to cry to sleep :shrug My son sleeps really well and sometimes I wonder if this is why... because he had comfort but he also got used to falling asleep without me holding him.... hard to say though

[LauraK]

I don't think it is CIO.