Reconciling non-punitive parenting and certain verses of the Bible

[Hopeful]

I was going to post this in the Punitive Parenting from the Pulpit thread but then realised I was perhaps raising different issues...


'I've haven't hit anyone since I was out of diapers myself so my reasoning is that I am certainly not going to start with my kids.

However, and I am not asking this to be argumentative but because I take the Bible seriously - how are we to reconcile our non-punitive beliefs with Proverbs 13:24 and other verses about discipline?

Various translations of Proverbs 13:24:
He who spares his rod [of discipline] hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines diligently and punishes him early.(Amplified Bible)

A refusal to correct is a refusal to love; love your children by disciplining them. (The Message)

He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently. (NSAB)

He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him. (NIV)

There are NT verses too:

One reason why this is of concern to me is that I've seen some shows like Nanny 911, Little Angels (UK show), etc where kids totally control the parents and thought 'I hope my kids won't be that bad'. Also our pastor's own kids were tearways - they were yelled at almost constantly but never disciplined in any way (perhaps I've anserwed my own question on that one!)

Here's a defintion of discipline according to the Cambridge Dictionary:
discipline

1 to punish someone:

2 to teach someone to behave in a controlled way

Perhaps part of the answer is that discipline in the biblical sense may not mean to 'harm' as such but to 'direct'?
In the same way that when we are told to fear the Lord it isn't in the 1st sense (being afraid) but rather more in the 2nd (respecting deeply)?
Is part of the problem that we read the Bible in translated versions?

[arymanth]

I am not asking this to be argumentative but because I take the Bible seriously - how are we to reconcile our non-punitive beliefs with Proverbs 13:24 and other verses about discipline?


Well, I had a long answer all typed out... and it got deleted! :hissyfit

So here is the short version. :grin

I agree that we should take the Bible seriously... but we should also make sure we are not reading things into it that are not there.

The most common way that these "rod" verses in Proverbs are translated is "spanking". The only way that the "rod" verses in Proverbs can be interpreted as "to spank" (a literal interpretation) would be to completely wrench the meaning around to make it fit modern practices. Either it means "BEAT" your child with a literal "ROD" or it doesn't. (It says "beat with a rod", but what it really means is "a few light taps with an open hand on the backside" See how this is twisting the scriptures to fit our own cultural practices?)

If you look at the book of Proverbs as a whole, you can see that it is exactly that... PROVERBS...wise sayings, very much like parables. They illustrate truths. If you were to try to make any of the verses in Proverbs literal, you would lose their intended meaning. (for example: "Put a knife to your throat if you are given to gluttony.") So what is the MEANING behind the ILLUSTRATION in these verses?

Basically these verses warn parents not to just let their kids grow up wild, but to INVEST TIME IN THEM. "A child LEFT TO HIMSELF brings shame to his mother." They encourage building a RELATIONSHIP with your child, and not "being a willing party to his death" by ignoring him.

As for the "punishment" verses in the NT, there are none that are meant to apply to children. There is one verse that is frequently quoted as "proof" that God requires us to hit our kids:

"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth." Heb. 12:6

The problem with this is in the translation. The word in the original Hebrew is "to whip or scourge", and it is only used a handful of times, each time referring to the beating Christ received before he was crucified. It CANNOT mean a literal scourging in this verse, obviously, and I believe there is something here that we do not understand. Whatever the interpretation, it is NOT an exortation to physically punish our children.

Another common NT verse used to support punishment is:

"Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby."

But if you read this in context, it is talking to ADULTS about SELF-DISCIPLINE. The verses preceding this one are comparing us to athletes preparing for a race. Any athlete knows that self-discipline is often painful and unpleasant. That doesn't mean it has to do with someone else punishing you. Even if your coach PUSHES you do try harder, do better, work on a weak area... it isn't to HURT you, but to help you improve. Pain is part of the process, but it is not the goal. In punishment, pain is the ultimate end... to make someone suffer for a wrong they have committed.

I think that instead of picking out verses here and there that seem to deal with a topic (like discipline) it is better to take an overview of things. Look at how God treats us... because we are HIS CHILDREN. Anything that applies to our relationship with God is going to be mirrored in some way in our relationship with our children.

One thing that helped me in changing from punitive methods was to ask myself how God would treat me if I was doing something comparable to what my kids were doing at the time. How does God handle ME? With punishments??? Or with patience and forgiveness? Studying the Bible to see my relationship with God, what He expects of me, how he responds when I sin.... has helped me see my relationship with my kids from an entirely different perspective.

It reminded me of the parable of the man who owed his lord a large sum of money. When the man told his lord that he could not repay the debt, the lord graciously forgave him. The first thing the man did was to find a man who owed him a small debt. He demanded that the man pay him back... immediately... and when he could not pay, he threw him in prison until he could pay it off. How did the lord respond when he heard what his servant had done???

When my children do things wrong, I have to remember that they are just CHILDREN. Their "debts" are small. How many much GREATER debts has God forgiven me for? To me, punishment it is like demanding that they pay THEIR debt, when God does not require me to pay for my own.

Just look at what God says about sin and grace in Romans:

"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!"

He is saying "should we go on sinning, because we know we won't be punished? Because if you are not under the law, you are also not subject to punishment. It's sort of like diplomatic immunity. :-)

This is the same argument I hear from parents who insist that children NEED to be punished, or else they will run wild. How does God keep his own children from running wild? Does he punish us? The Bible says he does not. So what is our motivation to obey? "If you LOVE ME, you WILL keep my commands". It is RELATIONSHIP, not PUNISHMENT that should motivate us to obedience. The closer we draw to God, the farther we get from our own sin natures. "So I say, live by the Spirit, and you WILL NOT gratify the desires of the sinful nature." Gal. 5:16

Ok, this is getting as long as the "long version". LOL I guess you get the point. Check out what God says about how he "disciplines" US, and you will have a clear image of how we are to parent our own children. :mrgreen

Stephanie, the long-winded

[ArmsOfLove]

the dictionary equating punish with discipline is a relatively new phenomenon--older dictionaries do not do this.

and some of the articles here (http://www.aolff.org/sf.htm) are my answers to the questions of the Bible verses :)

[Heather Micaela]

I'm not a big fan of the Message, but I like the way this is worded.
A refusal to correct is a refusal to love; love your children by disciplining them. (The Message)
We DO correct our kids, we just don't punish them


He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him. (NIV)

Yeah if I never disciplined my DS that is neglect and IS hatred. I correct him and love him while I do it.


I did my own research and found this:
http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=15392.0

I just asked every question on my mind the week of about june 24-29. I was already using GBD, but not sure to abandaon spanking altogheter. The ladies on here gave great answers. Just look for all the posts started by me during that time frame. (Both in Gentle Discipline andUnprepared for parenting) I bet it will help you a lot

[MarynMunchkins]

www.blueletterbible.org (http://www.blueletterbible.org) is a great place to do your own research into what those verses mean. :)

[cklewis]

I agree with all the PP. And another resource to understanding these verses is Clay Clarkson's Heartfelt Discipline.

In sum, we aren't ignoring those verses at all. In fact, we're REALLY reading them.

:hug

C

[Hopeful]

Thank you all for your replies.
Things do make more sense now.

I like the fact that you guys acknowledge that there is a world of difference between AP and letting you child run wild.

I especially like the point you made about how that verse seems to be taken literally and others are interpreted symbolically. I think that really hits the nail on the head. Proverbs is there to teach us principles thru illustrations.

Thank you ladies!

[TulipMama]

Hopeful, nothing will convince you like your own study of these and other verses in the Bible. Nothing will bring you to GBD like meditating on the Gospel, and the impact of that grace in your family.

But. . . Here are some more resources as you study out what the Lord intended in including those verses, and how He would have us apply the rod in our families.

http://parentingdecisions.com/childdiscipline/
http://www.parentingdecisions.com/sufferthelittlechildren7.htm
http://www.tulipgirl.com/mt/archives/000107.html
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/moodyfamily/disciplineconclusions.html
http://gentlemothering.com/topics/gentlediscipline.php

I hope this is helpful! *hug*

[shilohmm]

Also, look up the original Greek or Hebrew words translated "discipline." IIRC, none of them are defined as "punish", but as "teach" or "the whole sphere of eductation." As Crystal pointed out, equating discipline with punishment is a more modern convention.

Something few "pro-spanking" books recognize is that Hebrews 12 (the "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth" passage) is addressing, not disobedient Christians, but Christians facing persecution. The passage is meant to encourage them to hold firm to the faith in the face of persecution, and not to doubt God on the basis of trials. IMHO, to address these verses to parents spanking disobedient children is to twist them. What that chapter says about real parents is that fathers "chastened us after their own pleasure," whereas God disciplined us "for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness." I don't know that we as Christians should take these particular fathers as examples - one hopes we are NOT disciplining our children "after our own pleasure." ;)

And, again, the Greek word translated "chastened" generally refers to the whole education of a child, not merely to punishment. The word translated "scourging" does mean punishment, but nowhere is it said parents scourge their children - only God and unbelievers scourge (physically punish) in the NT. Believers are called to train and direct.

Sheryl

[mom2princesses]

Thanks for all this concrete info - I have a friend who is not willing to give up spanking on the basis that 'even the bible tells us to spank' - even though she said 'I need to take some tips from you - seems that non-punitive correction is working well" - I think she might be open to it. . .

[Heather Micaela]

Thanks for all this concrete info - I have a friend who is not willing to give up spanking on the basis that 'even the bible tells us to spank' - even though she said 'I need to take some tips from you - seems that non-punitive correction is working well" - I think she might be open to it. . .


Hey thats how I started this journey too. I saw the tools as good, spanked less, then examined what the Bibile really had to say.

I like to tell people there is a better way rather than say that spanking is wrong

[DebraBaker]

I don't think the Bible is contrasting punitive parents with GBD types but rather GBD types with permissive or neglectful parents.

It's *discipline* (teach, correct) vs do nothing because you're too freaking lazy.

Two extremes are not pleasent or productive but a nice balanced authoritative style seems best.

Debra Baker