About being strong willed

[Heather Micaela]

I don't doubt that kids have a "strong will" - desire to doo something and see it through to completion. But I don't like that it is being called synonomus w/ defiant.

I was just pondering this. I have a great memory and remember being just-turned 3. In my WHOLE childhood I really don't remember EVER having a desire to outright "defy" my parents. I DO remember not understanding thier rules. I also remember being confused for being punished or ridiculed for honest mistakes. Some still break my heart (and we WEREN'T spanked).

So how much validity is in that strong willed theory?

And what do you call the kid who always seems so want his own way and tears around the house like a maniac?

And if you don't use the book "the Stong Willed Child" - what would be the best book?
(This is how my DD is by the way)

[cklewis]

Raising Your Spirited Child. I found myself in it. It was a help!!

C

[ArmsOfLove]

So how much validity is in that strong willed theory? I believe that children labeled strong willed are very literal and spend much of their childhood confused--by instructions and by punishments :( They need firm boundaries, literal instructions, and lots of grace :amen

And what do you call the kid who always seems so want his own way and tears around the house like a maniac? Active Alert or Spirited

And if you don't use the book "the Stong Willed Child" - what would be the best book? "Living With the Active Alert Child" or "Raising Your Spirited Child"

[Irene]

yeah I was thinking about that too this weekend how I spend a lot of my childhood confused as to why I was in trouble so much :( both the books that were mentioned were very eye opening for me, as a "strong willed" person... I could finally understand myself and my childhood...

[UltraMother]

According to adversarial-parenting advocates, a "strong-willed" child is much harder to deal with, because they don't just simply follow what you say. I don't like the term because the people who use it do so in a very negative way. A strong will ought to be a GOOD thing.

[CJ]

I don't like being put in a box and I don't like putting my kids in one either--they're much more complex than "strong-willed" or "pleasing". I was labeled "a pleaser" by my parents and I can see now that I've had to and continue to have to recover from that emotionally, relationally and spiritually. I can imagine that the more negative label of "strong-willed" could be an even greater obstacle to overcome!

[cklewis]

I don't like being put in a box and I don't like putting my kids in one either--they're much more complex than "strong-willed" or "pleasing". I was labeled "a pleaser" by my parents and I can see now that I've had to and continue to have to recover from that emotionally, relationally and spiritually. I can imagine that the more negative label of "strong-willed" could be an even greater obstacle to overcome!


I completely understand what you're saying! Do you feel that "high-need" or "spirited" is as problematic? I'm not sure what I think, that's why I'm asking.

C

[This Busy Mom]

I believe that children labeled strong willed are very literal and spend much of their childhood confused--by instructions and by punishments. They need firm boundaries, literal instructions, and lots of grace

My oldest is defiant, or strong-willed or whatever you want to call him. I am sure God sent him to me for a reason... he is such a cool kid... he doesn't do anything unless he can see why it's of importance. He's redefined my role as a parent, changed my life for the better, and he is very close to me. He has to be constantly reminded who is in charge and he wants to know "why" he has to do something.

He's very much like his mother :giggle :O :shifty .

I can't give one book that his helping us... positive parenting in general changed my outlook towards him, and slowly teaching his stepdad what a positive parenting relationship looks like (he was raised in a punitive home).

My dh says my son and I are both very "rigid" people... I told him that's not a bad thing ;) .

[Katherine]

My older sister was labeled as strong-willed, rebellious, and "bad attitude" girl for her entire childhood. :cry Each teacher and SS leader would pass on warnings to the next in line, so leaders were "braced" for her... e.g. biased against her before she even started. Every year she would be so determined and desparate to make a new start.. so hopeful of escaping from the cloud she had been under.. and (almost) every year, the teacher would come down on her right from the beginning in an effort to "nip things in the bud." :bheart

She is an extremely emotional, expressive person. I think she really just needed help adjusting to changes, making transitions, coping with her very deep feelings, learning proper ways to express herself, developing motivation and self-control, and understanding the why's. She also just needed room to be herself. :shrug :hearts She is a strong, determined, generous, VERY sensitive, and amazing person. There is nothing she can't do if she puts her mind to it. :heart

After I read Raising Your Spirited Child, I passed it on to her, and she was blown away... she said she couldn't put it down. My ds reminds me a LOT of her... I think God had good reason for letting me be a front row observer and listening ear as she struggled through some of her childhood griefs. I wish it could have been different for her.. but am glad I can draw from her experiences to gain some insight into my own son.

[Dizzy Blond]

I was and still am strong-willed. My mom always referred to me as her "challenge". :rolleyes I still hate having been called that. And I hate it now when she tells other people what a challenge I was and how hard she had to come down on me to make sure I turned out right. :rolleyes I just want to be there and say "Yeah, mom, you had it really tough, a daughter who earned straight A's in school, was busy with sports and music and never dated till college. Real tough".

Heather, you're on the right path. Just assign positive intent. Realize that your spirited child just has more questions and doesn't want to follow authority "just because". And that is a good thing. My "strong-will" or determination has gotten me through a lot in life that others who were in the same boat just quit. As Christa said, you'll grow through this experience, too. :)

[cklewis]

My mom always referred to me as her "challenge". :rolleyes I still hate having been called that. And I hate it now when she tells other people what a challenge I was and how hard she had to come down on me to make sure I turned out right. :rolleyes I just want to be there and say "Yeah, mom, you had it really tough, a daughter who earned straight A's in school, was busy with sports and music and never dated till college. Real tough".

This is how conversations go with my ILs about my DH. :mad How impossible he was. How many spankings he got. How stubborn he still is.

Funny thing -- he's really not the most stubborn one in the family. In fact, I think he's the most flexible. Mind you, he's still stubborn my most standards, but compared to THEM. :rolleyes

In fact, I don't think I got labeled "strong-willed" until I married into that family. :think

C

[flowermama]

For a positive spin on the label "the strong-willed child (SWC)" I recommend Cynthia Tobias' book "You Can't Make Me (But I Can Be Persuaded): Strategies for Bringing Out the Best in Your Strong-Willed Child." :tu It's an easy book to read. She is an SWC herself and offers helpful insight into their minds. :)

I am very "strong-willed" myself. My first DD is very "strong-willed" (we call her spirited). So much written here describes her as well. She is really literal. :eek It can be a struggle for me to work through some situations and stay calm with my DD, but I've learned so much from her. I believe she is the way she is for a reason and that God has great plans for her. :) eta: I mean I believe that God has even more great plans for her! God has certainly already worked through her to bring about good things, such as this board... I always like to say ;) that GCM would not be here if it were not for her. :)

[ArmsOfLove]

Well do be sure to thank her for us ;)

[Dizzy Blond]

Camille - maybe your dh & I should have a chat about our dysfunctional families. :lol It always made me feel like I wasn't a part of the family or the black sheep of the family when I'm spoken of like that.

Jeri - yes, do thank your dd for being the inspiration for the wonderful site!! Sounds like a good book.

[cklewis]

Camille - maybe your dh & I should have a chat about our dysfunctional families. :lol It always made me feel like I wasn't a part of the family or the black sheep of the family when I'm spoken of like that.

:hug Funny thing? He is kinda the black sheep. He's the only one that received a college degree (and then some. He's a doctor (DMus). He's the only one that doesn't make tons of $, and he's the only one in full-time Christian service. He's the smartest one and the most perceptive. And he's the only one that didn't join the family car business and didn't build his home within a literal stone's throw of his parents' home (While you sit and eat b-fast in my ILs' house, my FIL will look back at my BIL's house and say, "When is he gonna wake up?" Then if you walk down to get the mail and look to your right, you can see my SIL's house. And behind her property is DH's plot which lies vacant).

So he is a black sheep to them. Hmph. He's also the best one.

C

[Heather Micaela]

:hug Funny thing? He is kinda the black sheep. He's the only one that received a college degree (and then some. He's a doctor (DMus). He's the only one that doesn't make tons of $, and he's the only one in full-time Christian service. He's the smartest one and the most perceptive. And he's the only one that didn't join the family car business and didn't build his home within a literal stone's throw of his parents' home
So he is a black sheep to them. Hmph. He's also the best one.


Yeah I always refer to Dh as the "white sheep" of the family for simialr reasons

[Dizzy Blond]

C - Your dh & I should really talk!! :lol I'm the only one in my family who is one of those freaky born-againers. ;) However, I really can't complain about my bros - the older one is a dear & calls me every week. And his dd (14 months old) is just like me in her strong-willed nature, so he says. And he's proud of that. :heart So I'm blessed w/ one family member that has always tried to understand me.

[cklewis]

:eek Wow, Susan. Weird. . . . <doo-doo-doo-doo-doo> (my version of weird Twilight Zone music)

C

[shilohmm]

She is an extremely emotional, expressive person. I think she really just needed help adjusting to changes, making transitions, coping with her very deep feelings, learning proper ways to express herself, developing motivation and self-control, and understanding the why's. She also just needed room to be herself.

There's a book called Strong-Willed Child or Dreamer? by Ron Braund and Dana Spears that talks about how some kids are "mis-labeled" strong-willed, and the child they call mislabeled sounds like your sister. Their position is that some kids do alright under Dobson's advice for strong-willed kids, but others who get the label are damaged by Dobson's advice.

I think the kids who need to know "why" before they'll do stuff are "INTP"s in the Briggs-Meyer personality type system. They aren't interested in wrestling control away from their parents, but they do like to have some control over their own lives, and they "see through" a lot of parenting ploys way early. I mean, unless a parent is willing to be positively abusive, the parent can't actually force a child to do what the parent wants - they can prevent a child from doing stuff, and they can forcibly walk the child through stuff, but ultimately, you can't make someone do most things. All you can do is make the punishment more and more extreme. I figured this out at an early age - my mom once said she never found anything that would motivate me, but when she listed what she tried, it was all punishments. I'm not motivated by punishment - I'm strongly demotivated by them.

I'm halfway between INTP and INFP - the INTP part wants to know "Why should I do it you way?", while the INFP part is only motivated by positive strokes. I'd break my back trying to please those I thought loved me, but I didn't believe my parents loved me so I had little motivation to obey beyond my belief that God insisted on it (which, when I viewed God as being as punitive as my parents, was still a mixed motivation - but even though I saw God as punitive, I also saw Him as somewhat loving, so I tried to do what He wanted...).

I think a lot of kids get labeled strong-willed who aren't defiant or rebellious at all - they just want to know "Why" badly enough that they ask "Why" even when they know it'll get them spanked, or they need to feel loved which makes it a real struggle to honor punitive parents, or they have a streak of autistic tendencies which means they simply don't "get" some rules for years and years (the literalist thing is something off the autistic spectrum - the "NT" personality is traditionally considered the autistic personality, inso far as there is such a thing). I got in trouble with my dad all the time because he was dead convinced that I was deliberately disobeying - in reality I just didn't think the way he thought I should and never imagined he'd wanted me to do whatever. :shrug

I have real problems with labeling a child, but at the same time I like personality type books because they discuss how people really do think differently, and how this is not a crime. I guess it's a fine line between recognizing that people are different and putting them in boxes, but if someone's prone to putting people in boxes anyhow it's nice to give them more boxes to use. ;)

My husband has strong NT tendencies - the second time I met my mother-in-law, she talked about how my husband was her "weird one." I love my in-laws dearly, but it's true that hubby is very different from the rest of them. My MIL was not particularly punitive - she spanked, but she wasn't big on control - so she didn't see him as being strong-willed or difficult that way. She was just frustrated by his independence, I think, in that he's the only one who moved away and who always did his own thing rather than hanging out with the family and doing what they're doing. But she wasn't angry about it; just sort of bewildered. :)

Sheryl

[Katherine]

Wow, Sheryl! That sounds like a very interesting book.. and yes, your descriptions remind me a lot of my sis. (and maybe my ds too.. ) :think

[domesticzookeeper]

Sheryl-

Do you have a camera in our house? Because what you described sounds exactly like my younger sister :neutral

I think the kids who need to know "why" before they'll do stuff are "INTP"s in the Briggs-Meyer personality type system. They aren't interested in wrestling control away from their parents, but they do like to have some control over their own lives, and they "see through" a lot of parenting ploys way early. I mean, unless a parent is willing to be positively abusive, the parent can't actually force a child to do what the parent wants - they can prevent a child from doing stuff, and they can forcibly walk the child through stuff, but ultimately, you can't make someone do most things. All you can do is make the punishment more and more extreme. I figured this out at an early age - my mom once said she never found anything that would motivate me, but when she listed what she tried, it was all punishments. I'm not motivated by punishment - I'm strongly demotivated by them.

Hannah was what ultimately made my parents realize that spanking doesn't work :( The spankings never escalated, but my parents saw that was where they were going. Unfortunately, even without spankings, they were in a very punitive mindset. And Hannah resisted every step of the way. It's only been these last few months, as I've been "practicing" GBD with her, that it's like having a whole new child.

I think a lot of kids get labeled strong-willed who aren't defiant or rebellious at all - they just want to know "Why" badly enough that they ask "Why" even when they know it'll get them spanked, or they need to feel loved which makes it a real struggle to honor punitive parents, or they have a streak of autistic tendencies which means they simply don't "get" some rules for years and years..I got in trouble with my dad all the time because he was dead convinced that I was deliberately disobeying - in reality I just didn't think the way he thought I should and never imagined he'd wanted me to do whatever.

Wow. That is sooo Hannah.

And palil's post you quoted really hit it home:

She is an extremely emotional, expressive person. I think she really just needed help adjusting to changes, making transitions, coping with her very deep feelings, learning proper ways to express herself, developing motivation and self-control, and understanding the why's. She also just needed room to be herself.

Intense, quirky, sensitive, intelligent - you've just described my little sister. Mom and I were just discussing this week how we are so used to Hannah's multitude of unique mannerisms, that if other people had a window into our lives, they'd probably be surprised. Unfortunately, given her personality, it's been a looong road and I know that an early punitive upbringing probably did more harm than good.

But it's also been cool to see how well the GBD tools have worked with her, and I think that - more than anything - has won my parents over :tu

[Lilly_of the_ Fields]

This is how conversations go with my ILs about my DH. How impossible he was. How many spankings he got. How stubborn he still is.

Funny thing -- he's really not the most stubborn one in the family. In fact, I think he's the most flexible. Mind you, he's still stubborn my most standards, but compared to THEM.

Far out! My dh is the reverse! He was the pleaser (rarely spanked, gave in, mediated/observed when his brothers were in trouble) and he's sooooo stubborn! :giggle (we both are, lol - but I'm strong willed to boot! ;) )