Feeling outnumbered and overwhelmed

[Cheyenne]

I have not been as consistent as I would like to be. I did really well when I only had two children who were really young and much easier to work with. As children have been added, we now have four, I have been dealing with Fibromyalgia, and being in pain or overly tired much of the time. Then add to that occasional depression, one child with some sort of undiagnosed issues that fall somewhere in the PDD-NOS, SID, ADHD range, another child who is hyper sensetive to the point of hyperventilating as well as extremely defiant/resistent when she doesn't want to do something I have told her to do, then my third gets into everything ie: toothpaste, lotion, no matter how high I put it. She is a climber and is lightning fast, and my fourth has had so many rashes and reactions to things that I spent months trying to figure out what she was allergic to and going to the doctors and medicine and everything. Ok, now it is starting to sound like whining. I am not trying to, but it seems like a complete picture would be helpful. My kids seem to have learned how to wear me down until I am so exhausted that I struggle to keep them from running all over me.

I guess what is even harder is that I made a new friend a few weeks ago. I don't make friends easily and she seemed like she would be a great friend. She loves the Lord. She has two children and her son and my son get along great. They are very alike and that is good for my son because it is hard to find a boy who will play well with my son because of my son's differences. The hard thing is, she turns out to be an avid fan of GKGW. They even teach it. UGH!!! It is really hard because my kids are not as compliant as her child and she is very outspoken that my kids need more discipline. The truth is that they do, just not in the way that she means it. She invited our family over for dinner and we, the adults, talked the whole time and were very engrossed in our conversations. No one was supervising the children. I mean, I was watching my youngest, but other than that, the other 5 children played alone. The oldest was my 7 1/2 year old. They have a play room with a lot of toys in it. Apparently the kids made a mess. She didn't tell me that night. She just cleaned it up while we were still there by herself. It wasn't until the next day that she informed me rather unkindly that my kids had made a mess and she doesn't know what kind of standards I set for my kids, but her kids know better and that she may need to not allow her kids to be around my kids because of the bad influence. That hurt sooooo bad. My kids are not bad kids. I get compliments all the time. They may not be as disciplined as they could be, as to not carrying food all over the house, or not making a disaster with their toys, but they are kind, polite to others, and even in restaraunts do really well except for the rare occasions.

I guess the hard thing is that I really could use a good friend IRL who is more encouraging and gentle and less condesending and condemning. I attract people like her. I think the reason I do attract people like her is because they are always on the lookout for someone to fix. I don't want someone to fix me. I want a friend and someone who will pray with me and encourage me with GBD not attack me because they think they know this or that and I am really not trying, or something else. Isn't it amazing how people can know you for three weeks and most of the time conversing by e-mail and then they think they are an authority on you and know you almost better than you know yourself. :banghead I know I struggle, but there is good reason. Not for lack of wanting to do things better, but really struggling it is hard to be consistent with things when my body and health isn't consistent.

Well, I am going to have to limit our conversation to probably just e-mails for right now. If she doesn't see my kids, then she can't criticize them, and I can ignore any comments she makes that I don't care for and just not respond to them.

I really hope to start posting more so that I can get to know people. It is hard though because there are so many people, it is hard to really make a friend even though there are so many wonderful people here. It is almost like large churches. The people are nice and great, but it is hard to get to know anyone because there are so many people.

Well, I am sorry if this is so wordy. I have so much on my mind and it is hard sometimes to get it to come out in writing well.

Thanks for listening,

Julie M.

[Wonder Woman]

:hugheart :pray God will send a wonderful IRL GBD friend your way!

[katiekind]

Those are some great insights, Cheyenne. I'm so sorry the friendship doesn't seem to be working out.

she is very outspoken that my kids need more discipline.

Right or wrong, how hurtful, rude and inappropriate! :sa

Do let GCM be a support system to you. I know it can be hard to socialize IRL when you're dealing with chronic illness. :hug

[CelticJourney]

Dear sister, you do need friends in your life, and this woman is not one of them nor will she be. Her standard is perfection and her criticism is her weapon. How dare she throw that at you the next day or dare tell you your children needed 'more discipline'! I have know families that needed more loving discipline with their children, but it certainly not my place to say, especailly with a new friendship. If I had a similar situation as the dinner host, I would have nicely asked all the children to help pick up the toys. By doing it quietly herself and not providing you an opportunity to be part of the solution, it gave her something to hold over you.

As far as GCM, don't tell anyone ;), but when I first started posting, I just thought of everyone as one single new friend and sorted everyone out as time went on.

Welcome !!

[arymanth]

First of all, you're not alone!!!

I'm the mom of two ADHD boys (16yo and 11yo), one super-emotional 9yo son, a 7yo drama queen, and a 14yo Jeckyl/Hyde adolescent.... and I'm ADD myself, and recently have been going through h*ll in my life with 3 miscarriages, a hormone imbalance, and now 6 weeks straight of round-the-clock morning sickness. :sick My husband was recently diagnosed with Bi-polar and is NOT helping things. :-(

I don't always discipline my kids the way I would like to, and I came out of a very punitive parenting style, so I have a lot of issues that I have to deal with as a result of my own mistakes. My oldest two swear (something I just knew MY kids would NEVER do!) , my 11yo "never listens" according to my relatives (he's got ADHD) and some days it feels like my youngest two spend most of their time either whining or getting into trouble. (drama queen and touchy-feelie boy) My life LOOKS like a mess... and some days it is.

BUT... something that I have learned is that having PERFECT KIDS is NOT THE GOAL TO PARENTING. It was NOT God's goal in the Bible, most of his own children were a mess, too. :-) I just talked to my mom yesterday about a certain very large family who was recently on TV, she mentioned how "well behaved" they all were and how impressed she was. I happened to know that this family is very much into Ezzo/Gothard/Pearls teachings. I gently tried to explain HOW these kids came to be so "obedient"... and she told me "IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW THEY GOT THAT WAY, THE END RESULT IS WHAT COUNTS"

I was speechless! Is that really what God thinks about us? And if so, why doesn't HE use punitive, controlling measures (like GKGW) to keep US in line all the time???

I spent all day yesterday thinking about this. No, my kids are not as "well behaved" as some others. (of course, I don't know many families with more than 2-3 kids, and none with ADHD boys) But I can see the IMPORTANT traits that I want my kids to have starting to show as they get older. My oldest is very loving and accepting of people, no matter what they look like or how they act. He's not perfect, he talks a lot and acts really weird sometimes (another ADHD trait) but he's got a GOOD HEART. Not being able to sit still or be quiet all the time has nothing to do with this quality at all.

My second oldest is in the throes of puberty right now, and it's been a real nightmare.... BUT... I can still see flashes of the young man I know is inside of him... he feels things very deeply, he is considerate and extremely generous. (his friend wants to go on a trip to a water park with their youth group.... my son can't make it because of his job, but he is giving his friend his own money to go because he knows their family can't afford it!) All that people looking on from the outside are going to see of this child is probably his obnoxious attitude, his occasional swearing, and his long, untidy hair. God knows what is really going on in his heart.

When I meet families like the one you describe (and I've met a LOT of them!) it makes me sad to see how much emphasis they put on what ultimately will mean very little to that child when they become adults. A CLEAN ROOM is not going to make that child a GOOD PARENT. Having a child who is "polite" does not mean that they will be a good friend or spouse when they grow up. Being reflexively obedient is not a trait that I want my child to carry into adulthood AT ALL!!! I want them to be able to practice "intelligent disobedience"... being able to stand up for themselves when they know something is not right!

To be honest, the woman you describe was not displaying any of the traits I would want my children to learn. She sounded very RUDE in the way she talked to you... not at all displaying the "preciousness of others" she must have learned about in her GKGW classes. It sounded like she had a great deal of PRIDE to imply that you and your children were not "good enough" for her. These are qualities that her children will pick up on and carry into adulthood.

If you have her e-mail address, you could write her a letter politely commenting on the graceless way you approached you and how it does not seem to line up at all with what she says she is teaching her own children. Do NOT let her intimidate you or make you feel inferior. It is NOT the immediate results that impress or please God... it is reaching a child's HEART with the LOVE OF GOD that is what matters.

I do understand how difficult it is to handle life when you aren't feeling good and things seem to be working against you. Hang in there!!! :hug

[Cheyenne]

Thank you so much for the encouraging posts. I am so sorry. I never meant that all of you couldn't be my friends, I do see everyone that way. I feel bad it came out that way. What I meant was is someone that I could get to know a bit more individually. I can't do that with everyone on this list. I don't know. I guess because there are so many people it is hard for me to remember who everyone is. I remember a few who have a picture or username that stands out, but I often forget what they have written before and so I really don't know them. I think everyone on here is great!! I am so amazed by the kindness and humility on this list. I never desire to minimize the fellowship here, but sometimes it would be nice to have a few people to get to know deeper than what is possible sometimes on this large message board. I hope that came out right and I didn't dig a deeper hole than I appeared to have already dug. I have been to message boards in the past and although I haven't enjoyed any of them as much as I have this one, it is easy to get lost in the shuffle it seems. Well, I do want to get to know everyone and I never would want to exclude anyone here from being a friend of mine.

Thanks so much.

Julie M.

[purplerose]

:hugheart :grouphug

Hey Julie! Big hugs to you! Hang in there! I know how hard it is to have a good friend, but then they are punitive and just feel the need to tell you how to discipline your own children! They don't know your kids like you do!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It IS very hrad to find a GCM/AP mom IRL! But they are out there. Plus, you always have us here!!!!!! Pray for her and for your family!!! :pray :amen

[Cheyenne]

Thank you so much Arymanth. That was very encouraging. She did have a very Self-righteous attitude and it was very demeaning. I am truly disappointed, because I had such hope for this friendship. I will need to start praying for her. I remember a time when I thought I had all the parenting thing down pat. I was so pleased, and I got lots of compliments. It felt good. Then things changed and now I am forced to rely very heavily on God. Not at all a bad thing!!! I would rather feel weak and incapable and be on my knees before God each day seeking His help, then be over confident in my own abilities to parent using some method like GKGW. Not that there aren't those who use it and still seek God's help, because I am sure there are, but it seems like for a lot of people using `GKGW and the like, they are taught to rely on the book and formulas more than God. I told my friend that I wasn't going to do GKGW, and that I knew I needed to work on a few things. I told her that what I really needed to do was get on my knees and seek God and ask him for help each day because He knows everything I am going to face that day and He knows exactly the best way to handle the situation and is perfectly willing and able to help me handle it the right way. She argued with me on that and that I was just refusing to use a resource that was so obviously from God and that I just didn't want to change and do better. I do want to do better. Just not that way.

Julie M.

[Heather Micaela]

cheyenne I just wanted to offer you some hugs. I know it's tough when you feel all alone.Once you get more posts there is a forum to connect w/ other GCM moms IRL. Maybe they are some in your area.

[TulipMama]

She just cleaned it up while we were still there by herself. It wasn't until the next day that she informed me rather unkindly that my kids had made a mess and she doesn't know what kind of standards I set for my kids, but her kids know better and that she may need to not allow her kids to be around my kids because of the bad influence. That hurt sooooo bad.

Ideally she would have responded with an upbeat attitude and encouraged ALL the children to pick up. Or mentioned to you kindly (that night) that she has her children pick up the toys as they play, and so could everyone join in.

Instead, she's choosing to act as a martyr and then blaming others for it.

Definitely not a healthy dynamic for a friendship.

If you really do "click" with her--then I'd keep the relationship to email or just going out for coffee. When you feel comfortable, perhaps a play date at the park (less mess, easier to keep your kids from being targeted.)

To be honest, coming from a BTDT Ezzo point-of-view, there is a lot of isolationism and desire to be "likeminded" for GKGW families. If she and her husband lead GKGW classes, I don't think she'll just let you and your family be YOU, and do what she thinks is best for her family. She will keep pushing and prosletyzing, until either she decides you are too negative an influence on her family or until you succumb to attending/reading Ezzo. *shrug* It's not just her, it's also--to borrow from Ezzo--a philosophy she's embraced.

[TulipMama]

I remember a time when I thought I had all the parenting thing down pat. I was so pleased, and I got lots of compliments. It felt good. Then things changed and now I am forced to rely very heavily on God. Not at all a bad thing!!! I would rather feel weak and incapable and be on my knees before God each day seeking His help, then be over confident in my own abilities to parent using some method. . .

AMEN! And I pray I never come across to other like I ahve it all together--because I don't--and I know now more than I ever have how much I NEED our gracious God on a daily, daily basis.

[CelticJourney]

She argued with me on that and that I was just refusing to use a resource that was so obviously from God and that I just didn't want to change and do better.

Incredibly arrogant, but not unexpected. Do you know much about GKGW? If not try looking at www.ezzo.info. They have tons and tons of articles, one of which is 'The Cult Characteriscs of GFI" (or close to that). It's not you - If I had to guess, based on what you wrote, from her perspective it's less about friendship than about recruiting you to GKGW, which in her mind would prove she is right and 'superior'.

Now you can do two things, read a bunch there just to solidify your position. Or you can read a bunch there and 'play with her head'. Tell her you took her advice and looked into Ezzo on the net and found out a lot. Then drop a few tid bits like "now why is it that Ezzo was removed from not one, but two churches?" "Why did the AAP come out with that statement opposed to scheduled feeding like Ezzo's" "It seems when someone as educated and conservative as James Dobson comes out with a statement of concern, it must mean something." "What Ezzo says about crying being healthy goes against the recent Harvard study relating stress during crying to medical concerns". One thing or the other will stop, the friendship or the comments - you just have to be prepared for either.

As for your comments about irl friends vs cyber friends, no one here would take offense to that - don't worry. Like someone else said, you're safe here, we do understand. Actually you should see how excited we get when one of us gets to meet another GMC mom irl (and a little jealous if it is not us ;))

[Cheyenne]

I know a bit about GKGW. I started to take the class and I have read babywise. Thankfully for her children, she doesn't agree with babywise at all. She does however support Along the Virtuous Way. Any specific info on that? She does do CIO, but to what extent I am not sure nor what age she started that at.

I will have to pray about how I handle this further. I so appreciate the advice because it gives me something to pray and think about.

[TulipMama]

Along the Virtuous Way=Growing Kids Gary's God's Way

Repackaged, new name. Same basic content and concept.

[Cheyenne]

I will clarify what I was asking. I know that it is the same thing, but most of the stuff against Ezzo refers to Babywise which she already disagrees with. What info is there against Along the Virtous Way. I know we have the rod study, but for some people they are so set on spanking as being Biblical and I hear people say that you can use Bible verses to support anything ie: how Ezzo uses verses to support his methods. How do you show someone that the verses mean something else when the other side uses the same verses to mean the other thing. I believe the interpretation, but I am already biased against spanking. It is easier for me to concede that those verses don't mean a physical rod/stick.

[arymanth]

I know that it is the same thing, but most of the stuff against Ezzo refers to Babywise which she already disagrees with. What info is there against Along the Virtous Way.

There isn't any specifically about "Along the Virtuous Way" because it IS Growing Kids God's Way.... all he did was put a new title on it.... probably BECAUSE of the bad press about GKGW/Babywise. If you do a websearch on "Along the Virtuous Way" you won't come up with all the negative hits like you do if you type in Babywise or GKGW. It's nothing more than a marketing gimmick so he can continue to sell his materials without people realizing that there is any controversy about them.

If you go to the Growing Families International website, the original titles are there coupled with their newly titled counterparts. (Preparation for Parenting = Along the Infant Way, Growing Kids God's Way = Along the Virtuous Way, etc.)

The only reason I can think of for her to say she doesn't agree with Babywise is that maybe she doesn't do Ezzo's "infant schedule", since Babywise is essentially "Along the Infant Way"... the baby guide... and the majority of the book is about his schedule. If she breastfed, this would explain it. "GKGW/Along the Virtuous Way" deals with older children. It would be the equivalent of "Childwise".

Everything on www.ezzo.info about Growing Kids God's Way would apply to Along the Virtuous Way, since they are exactly the same thing. And of course, everything there about Gary Ezzo himself would apply to ALL of his materials.

As for the scriptural problems in the materials, here is a link that explains in depth what is incorrect and why: http://ourworld.cs.com/kent1750/GKGW/contents.htm

Hope this helps!

[ArmsOfLove]

:hug I'm sorry that this is happening. I can't imagine why she wouldn't just make you aware of the mess and see how you handled it. Sounds like she's judgmental and arrogant. I'd simply tell her that you've read the stuff and gone to a few classes and just aren't interested. Then pass the bean dip ;) Maybe boldly ask her if she is willing to be friends if you don't take the class and then ask her to stop offering unsolicited parenting advice ;)

[Knitted_in_the_womb]

I told my friend that I wasn't going to do GKGW, and that I knew I needed to work on a few things. I told her that what I really needed to do was get on my knees and seek God and ask him for help each day because He knows everything I am going to face that day and He knows exactly the best way to handle the situation and is perfectly willing and able to help me handle it the right way. She argued with me on that and that I was just refusing to use a resource that was so obviously from God and that I just didn't want to change and do better. I do want to do better. Just not that way.

Good grief...since when was prayer not the most powerful tool that we can implement??? If GKGW is SO much a resource "obviously from God" then wouldn't God reveal that to you as you pray??? :banghead

Hugs! :heart

Jenn, wife to Steve; mom to Jessica 10/30/98, Katie 6/19/00, Jason 2/8/02, Sean 1/17/04 :grouphug

[Cheyenne]

Good grief...since when was prayer not the most powerful tool that we can implement??? If GKGW is SO much a resource "obviously from God" then wouldn't God reveal that to you as you pray??? :banghead

Hugs! :heart

Jenn, wife to Steve; mom to Jessica 10/30/98, Katie 6/19/00, Jason 2/8/02, Sean 1/17/04 :grouphug


I think she thinks that I am not really serious about desiring to seek God and just thinks I am using it merely as an excuse to avoid GKGW. That can't be further from the truth though. I am so weary and exhausted mentally and physically that I want nothing more than to run to my Heavenly Father and let Him be in control and not myself. I only mess things up when I do things independent from Him. It isn't the first time though that she has twisted my words around and assigned some sort of negative intent to me in her attempt to appear super spiritual. I'll admit I am not super spiritual, but I have a super God!!!

[TulipMama]

I know that it is the same thing, but most of the stuff against Ezzo refers to Babywise which she already disagrees with. What info is there against Along the Virtous Way. I know we have the rod study, but for some people they are so set on spanking as being Biblical and I hear people say that you can use Bible verses to support anything ie: how Ezzo uses verses to support his methods. How do you show someone that the verses mean something else when the other side uses the same verses to mean the other thing. I believe the interpretation, but I am already biased against spanking. It is easier for me to concede that those verses don't mean a physical rod/stick.

The problems with Ezzo's materials for older children isn't a rod/spanking issue. I know wonderful Christian people who still spank, but are firmly opposed to what Ezzo teaches.

The problems with ALL of Ezzo's materials can be summed up:

1. Medical/Developmental Misinformation: While it is abundant in Babywise/Along the Infant Way, the other Ezzo materials show a lack of knowledge and consideration for normal child physical growth and normal child development.

2. Biblical Misuse: Gary Ezzo is not careful with his use of Scripture. This link that was posted earlier does a great job explaining and detailing that. This link refers specifically to GKGW, not Babywise.
http://ourworld.cs.com/kent1750/GKGW/contents.htm

3. Character Issues. Gary Ezzo has unresolved church discipline situations--he has been excommunicated from one church and left another church while the elders were addressing discipline areas in his life. I cannot trust a man teaching about Christian discipline in the home, when he himself demonstrates a lack of understanding and respect for Christian discipline in the Church.
http://ezzo.info/character.htm

[CelticJourney]

The best way to understand how the books relate is to read the timeline at ezzo.info. He wrote Preparation for Parenting first, then removed all the religious content and republished it as Babywise so that he could sell to a secular audience. Once he lost his publisher for that, he started self-publishing 'Prep' under the new name 'Along the Infant Way'..... confused yet? He has also published Babywise several times, which makes it hard to cite references when discussing the books, you have to know the edition.

All this to say, the schedule that you say your friend disagrees with is in the other books, but with a 'devine' mandate.

Ezzo.info has everything broken down by type of arguement and type of book - it's an amazing resource!

[katiekind]

it is hard for me to remember who everyone is.

Don't tell anyone, but I have this problem too. It does get easier to "see" the individuals as time goes by. :-)

[CelticJourney]

It does get easier to "see" the individuals as time goes by

Yeah, but then someone changes their Avatar or someone else gets cute and want a new screen name and I have to start all over again. :giggle

[Heather Micaela]

It does get easier to "see" the individuals as time goes by

Yeah, but then someone changes their Avatar or someone else gets cute and want a new screen name and I have to start all over again. :giggle


And I was about to change mine - oh well, maybe I'll wait.............

[CelticJourney]

Yeah, but then someone changes their Avatar or someone else gets cute and want a new screen name and I have to start all over again.

And I was about to change mine - oh well, maybe I'll wait.............


Naw, go ahead - it keeps us all on our toes. ;)