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cklewis
06-26-2005, 06:16 AM
If I remember correctly, Ezzo says to have all the spanking done by 15mo or so (correct me if I'm wrong). And Dobson says to START spanking at 18mo, right?

Can you all survey what is the stated time for all these? My DS is now 18mo, and I have a feeling I'm going to be running into this more. I just want to be prepared.

:ty Hope I'm making sense. . . .

C

TulipMama
06-26-2005, 06:23 AM
Ezzo believes spanking is appropriate beyond 15 months, well into childhood. Though, he may believe that the bulk of it will be done early.

Pearl/Woodshed is of the idea that the more spanking that is done in the very early years, the less will be "needed" as children are older.

Katherine
06-26-2005, 08:04 AM
From Dobson:

"There is no excuse for spanking babies or children younger than fifteen to eighteen months of age."

"There is no magical time.... when spanking becomes ineffective.... But as a general guideline, I would suggest that most corporal punishment be finished prior to the first grade (six years old). It should taper off from there and stop when the child is between the ages of ten and twelve."

from The New Dare to Discipline, pg. 65

Pearl of course, think you should start spanking your babies as soon as they can arch their backs or cry when you put them down. :rolleyes

What other authors do you need info about?

TulipMama
06-26-2005, 09:22 AM
Reb Bradley's "Child Training Tips"
page 47

"The ideal is that your child's will is brought into subjection to your by the time they are 3-4 years old. If done successfully, they may require few spanks after that age.



Fugate's "What the Bible Says About Child Training"
"Chastisement will be required often during the "child" stage of development until the child becomes obedient. This should normally occur between eight and twelve years of age. From then on it should only be necessary to chastise a teenager occasionally when he tries to re-exert his own will against set standards. Most children can become obedient in their early training."


Mr. Bradley quotes Mr. Fugate extensively, btw.



Tedd Tripp's "Shepherding a Child's Heart"
page 154
"When is My Child Old Enough?
When your child is old enough to resist your directives, he is old enough to be disciplined. When he is resisting you, he is disobeying. . . Rebellion can be something as simple as an infant struggling against a diaper change or stiffening out his body when you want him to sit on your lap. The discipline procedure [ie, spanking] is the same as laid out above. . . Your temptaion will be to waint until your children are speaking and able to articulate their rebellion before you deal with it. When our oldest child was approximately 8 months old. . . Here was a young child, not yet able to walk or to talk, looking to see if the caost was clear so he could disobey. Obeviously he was old enough to be disciplined. [ie, spanked]"

page 160 references new Christians getting their 5 & 9 y/o daughters under control.

Katherine
06-26-2005, 10:03 AM
Yuk! I didn't know Tripp advocated spanking babies... (I have hit book but haven't ever felt up to reading it.) :(

I thought the Pearls stood in a class by themselves in that regard, but apparently not. :cry :bheart

hsgbdmama
06-26-2005, 10:14 AM
My DS is now 18mo, and I have a feeling I'm going to be running into this more. I just want to be prepared.

Just a dumb question from me -- who would you be running into this more from? I never encountered anyone telling me I needed to be spanking or whatever and ds1 is 4.5. :shrug

cklewis
06-26-2005, 11:08 AM
First, thanks!! This is what I wanted to know. I just like to have my ducks in a row.

Ah, Jodi. Sigh. . . . People. Church people, school people, people people. :( You know, that camraderie that spankers kind of initiate? The "I-bet-you're-having-to-give-him-lots-of-whallops-now!" kinds of comments. I've overheard them directed at other mothers, and I refuse to participate in even the joking about it. But I don't want to come off as a meanie either. I need to have something to say like, "well, we believe that shepherding means teaching what *to* do." Or "redirection works VERY well for us." Or . . . . i don't know what.

Does that make sense?

Our church is using the Tripp book for a series in a few weeks. I won't be going. But. . . . I just want to know the specifics.

:ty

C

Soliloquy
06-26-2005, 01:01 PM
The "I-bet-you're-having-to-give-him-lots-of-whallops-now!" kinds of comments. I've overheard them directed at other mothers, and I refuse to participate in even the joking about it.

Our church is using the Tripp book for a series in a few weeks. I won't be going.
:bheart :cry

MarynMunchkins
06-26-2005, 01:36 PM
:hug ((Camille)) :hug

I usually respond to those comments with :eek and "I have no idea what you're talking about. We don't spank."

:D

Katherine
06-26-2005, 04:00 PM
Camille,

I'm very familiar with the camraderie to which you refer :/, and grew up in a very similar setting to where you work. :shifty

I think the type of answers you suggested are good! :tu You can always just look a little confused and say "no, we haven't had to do that.." and change the subject. I had family members start this with me from the time my oldest son was able to pick things up and scoot around on the floor.. Of course, at that time, I still intended to spank, but it was very, VERY awkward during the period where I was transitioning/questioning my spanking beliefs.

I got really tired of hearing.. "you're gonna have to start spanking him for THAT!" and similar remarks over and over and over again every time we were with family. Also upsetting was when someone else told *him* that I was going to spank him. grrrr.. I hope I would be able to handle it better now than I did then when I was so unsure of myself.

I will say this..

I didn't talk to people about what we were doing or thinking about b/c I was scared of the fall-out.. I knew it would be ugly. Somehow I had this idea that things would go better if I could sort everything out in my mind and then let everyone in on it when I had my ducks in a row... It didn't happen that way... and when people don't KNOW where you stand, they imagine all sorts of things, and take offense to the things they are imagining... I ended up having not only our fundamental disagreement over discipline to deal with, but incidents and misunderstandings that arose due to my lack of clear communication. I wish I had been open with the people in my life sooner about my decision to try other approaches besides just spanking.. and let them know--if pressured--that I was still working things out in my mind and not ready to discuss it in detail. At least then, there wouldn't have been so much confusion and dismay and so many wrong assumptions among my family (maybe?). There still would have been tension and disagreement, of course. There's no getting around that when people believe differently, but I've had to deal with that anyway. :shrug

sorry to get a bit off topic.. I guess I would just hate to see anyone else have things come to a head and explode the way they did for us... hurt feelings and damaged relationships are not a good starting place for introducing friends and family to GBD.

ShowersofBlessings
06-26-2005, 05:34 PM
I thought I read somewhere that Dobson doesn't think that you should spank before 2. Or at least be very cautious about it..... :shrug

Katherine
06-26-2005, 05:51 PM
I thought I read somewhere that Dobson doesn't think that you should spank before 2. Or at least be very cautious about it.....

It's possible that some of writings have slight variations as far as the particulars. :shrug :shrug I know he has a book called "The First Two Years" cause I used to have it.. but got rid of it. The quote I gave was verbatim.... I typed it straight out of the book.. but it is some of his older writing--originally published in 1970, then updated and released in 1992, which is the copyright date on mine.

TulipMama
06-26-2005, 06:03 PM
palil, thank you for sharing so thoughtfully about sharing with others/keeping to ourselves our decisions about parenting.

ShowersofBlessings
06-26-2005, 06:45 PM
I think that Dobson did update his book and changed his mind. Saying that you should wait till about 2 years old to spank.... Sorry, I don't have an exact quote on that. And not that it makes it ok, just a point of reference since Camille's son is only 18 months, not 2 years old.....

mamaKristin
06-26-2005, 07:22 PM
Hmmm...in Canada, it's illegal to spank before age 2 and after age 12. So I guess you would have to fit it in during the "spankable years". :sick2 Not that this law stops people determined to follow this junk I'm sure. :td (as if at age 2 they magically become "spankable"...)

Katherine
06-26-2005, 07:51 PM
palil, thank you for sharing so thoughtfully about sharing with others/keeping to ourselves our decisions about parenting

:O Thanks. You are always so encouraging when I share my thoughts. :heart

UltraMother
06-26-2005, 10:11 PM
Here was a young child, not yet able to walk or to talk, looking to see if the caost was clear so he could disobey.

:sick2

Yeah, I'm sure that's what he was doing. :rolleyes

fourbzboysmom
06-27-2005, 01:24 AM
Oh Camille,

The Tripp book is YUCKY! :cry

I had someone just recently make a joke with my Derek (4 at the end of August) about using a spatula as a paddle, and he just stared at him blankly and moved on. I just quietly explained that he didn't know the meaning of either "spank" or "paddle" --that he wasn't familiar with either word.

I'm so glad we don't have to deal with issues like that in our church.

ShowersofBlessings
06-27-2005, 11:12 AM
The Tripp book is YUCKY! :cry

ITA! :hissyfit


I had someone just recently make a joke with my Derek (4 at the end of August) about using a spatula as a paddle, and he just stared at him blankly and moved on. I just quietly explained that he didn't know the meaning of either "spank" or "paddle" --that he wasn't familiar with either word.


Now that is just SICK!!!! :( :sick :( :sick Why would someone *joke* about spanking/paddling. :shrug

cklewis
06-27-2005, 11:32 AM
Thank you ALL!! :hug Thanks palil, for your advice. Sigh. . . . I'm still going to try to put it off as much as I can. But I appreciate those of you who have BTDT.

:hug

C

PS -- Hi, Laurie!! :iloveyou

happy2bmama
06-27-2005, 12:37 PM
I've overheard them directed at other mothers, and I refuse to participate in even the joking about it. But I don't want to come off as a meanie either. I need to have something to say like, "well, we believe that shepherding means teaching what *to* do." Or "redirection works VERY well for us." Or . . . . i don't know what.

:hug I know where you are - my ds is 18 months too and I'm already hearing it. I heard it this weekend from an uncle and he said that we don't "discipline" children in America and went on to talk about spanking. I asked him if he even knew what "discipline" meant and I explained to him that it meant to teach. I really lit into him (and so did my DH which I was EXTREMELY proud of!!! :heart ) and I said, "What did you REALLY learn from your parents as a child when you were spanked? To FEAR that person - to HIDE information from that person. There's nothing EFFECTIVE about spanking except that everyone is upset and the child is hurt. But if you REALLY want to teach your child, make sure that they understand WHAT they did wrong and help them take ownership of the problem and then let them resolve it".... I get really defensive now when people tell me I should spank and I have some responsives that are very forceful. I've also been reading Barbara Coloroso's "Kids are Worth it" and so has my DH and the examples in that book have given me more ammunition than I've ever had before.

Can you tell I'm fired up about this? :hearts

cklewis
06-27-2005, 12:43 PM
You know how a cat will be just seemingly lying there "asleep" and then his prey unwittingly walks just past his nose and the cat POUNCES. . . . I fancy myself that cat. I'm just waiting for someone to step on my toes about this.

But when you have all that pent up feeling/argument, you sometimes look as silly as that cat jumping up in the air on a milk bottle cap. Think Ninja Cat pose. That's me too. :badhair

Sigh. . . .

C

ArmsOfLove
06-27-2005, 12:46 PM
Oh, man, Camille--I have been looking for a time to use that emoticon--you beat me to it :giggle

Well played :clap

cklewis
06-27-2005, 12:50 PM
Well played :clap

:dance

C

happy2bmama
06-27-2005, 12:53 PM
But when you have all that pent up feeling/argument, you sometimes look as silly as that cat jumping up in the air on a milk bottle cap. Think Ninja Cat pose.
Good poing! I hope I didn't look silly when talking to my husbands brother. But, I've been extremely careful not to tell others how to parent and I've been extremely careful not to tell them that I don't believe in spanking. But, they are crossing a line when they tell me that long run it will be the only effective means of teaching my child. It just makes my blood boil :banghead - it's really gotten me fired up lately. :hissyfit

The farther I get away from Ezzo mentalities and the more positive parenting books I read, the better my child responds. Is he perfect? NOPE! Never will be. But he' s a very sweet and gentle little boy who really seems to want to do the right thing. And, just like me, he makes mistakes, but just like me, he will experience God's grace!

cklewis
06-27-2005, 12:57 PM
I say pounce away!! :highfive

Sounds like your aim is pretty good and you're attacking a rat's nest of ideas. Go for it!!

C

Katherine
06-27-2005, 04:16 PM
Yeah, and I was thinking about this...

I'm wondering if the core issue is less that we don't spank, and more that we have a different set of expectations than others. Think about it... if my kids behaved according to the "standards" or expectations of others, I could boldly admit that I've never spanked them, and there would be no room for criticism--no opportunity for comment. So what I use gentle methods... my kids' behavior is absolutely "perfect" at all times so what are they going to say? Even if I had the occasional problem, but my child instantly and consistantly responded to verbal instructions--never needing my help and never requiring more interventive boundary-setting, they would still be hard-pressed to argue with me about it. The problems that usually come up with us are that ds melts down or misbehaves, and punitive "others" are only focused on stopping the behavior, while I am (hopefully :shifty ) trying to consider not *just* the behavior but the reasons behind it... I am trying to make my response appropriate based on what I know about ds's personality, age, circumstances and emotional/social ability.

Maybe the difference is--they're trying to achieve that perfection and control... the social image and approval. They expect their kids to behave like mature (but totally submissive :think ) Christian adults at the earliest possible age.

I expect my kids to BE kids and to go through all the messy phases of development and growing up... the processes being 2, 3, 5, and 10 yo.. the journey of maturing over the course of years.

I thought about this b/c I took this approach in responding to my family before I had admitted to them that we would not be spanking him anymore in general. When someone started in, I would just state my expectations out loud, either as an explanation to the person interfering, or (more frequently) out loud to my son, but clearly outlined for the benefit of people standing by. That's one great thing about reflecting feelings... it can help us to help our children put words to how they're feeling, but it can also help us to "teach" the adults around us who have never considered things from a child's point of view. Yeah, some of them will think we've been reading too much psycho babble, or that we're making excuses... but for others, those seeds will take root and grow into deeper consideration.

Just my ramblings... :)

Lois
06-27-2005, 04:38 PM
Thanks so much everyone for posting...my dd is only 9 months old but all my irl friends spank and so I am sure I will be running up against some of this all in a few months so I have really enjoyed reading all these posts and soaking up the good ideas :dance

happy2bmama
06-27-2005, 05:52 PM
I'm wondering if the core issue is less that we don't spank, and more that we have a different set of expectations than others.
You have REALLY hit the nail on the head with this! My toddler had QUITE the meltdown today and it's interesting because I REALLY felt bad for him because he was SOOOO frustrated and just could NOT get his message across to me, even though we were both trying. I hugged him tonight before bedtime and spent some time reflecting his feelings and told him I loved him and that I knew how frustrating it was. And then I laid down with him to go to sleep. And that's when it dawned on me how CORRECT your statement.

We (GCM) expect normal toddler behaviour. I spend more time trying to read up on what he is going through developmentally more than anything else. I feel like I need to understand how he is growing and developing in order to better understand how to be there for him. I didn't want to SPANK him for his tantrums (and I have many friends who WOULD have spanked :shrug ), and I didn't think he was being a "bad child". I just felt like he was going through normal toddler "stuff" - it's a little bit trying and frustrating at times, but VERY normal.

I truly feel bad for folks who look at their children as always being "defiant" and don't try to understand what they are going through. It must make parenting that much more difficult and frustrating....

TulipMama
06-28-2005, 02:33 AM
I'm wondering if the core issue is less that we don't spank, and more that we have a different set of expectations than others. . . .

I expect my kids to BE kids and to go through all the messy phases of development and growing up... the processes being 2, 3, 5, and 10 yo.. the journey of maturing over the course of years.

I think this is true, to a large degree. I know for me, I shifted from a control-their-behaviour outlook to a nurture-who-they-are outlook. (Though, honestly, I wouldn't have seen it in those terms when I was more punitive--I thought I was nurturing!)

We do have a different set of expectations. However, I think we need to be cautious in how we say that--I know that reads to some as "lower expectations." I would say for the most part we don't have lower expectations for our children--just a different empasis on what we expect.

Then again, I do have "lower" expectatations in that I no longer expect my kids to act perfect (or get spanked.)

Katherine
06-28-2005, 07:59 AM
However, I think we need to be cautious in how we say that--I know that reads to some as "lower expectations." I would say for the most part we don't have lower expectations for our children--just a different empasis on what we expect.

I agree. I think I have more *realistic* expectations for a given point in their life and development. Overall, I think I have the same expectations in many ways--just seeking to accomplish them on a less "urgent" time table (18 years instead of 2) :) --and in many ways I have higher expectations than I did before. Ex. I am putting a lot more emphasis and effort into my children's emotional development and social understanding, rather than simply requiring the "correct" behavior and believing the heart attitude will automatically "follow" the actions.

happy2bmama
06-28-2005, 08:40 AM
Overall, I think I have the same expectations in many ways--just seeking to accomplish them on a less "urgent" time table (18 years instead of 2)
Palil - I'm so glad you said this! I can't tell you how many times I have told my Ezzo friends that my goal is 18 years, not 2. I want my children to know how to make the right decisions at 18 - THAT is my goal. And I have VERY high standards for my children - but I'm not going to spank them to get the behaviour. That just makes them AFRAID to do anything but behave. I want my child to behave because he WANTS to and because it IS the best choice. Does that make sense or am I just rambling?

tui_song
06-29-2005, 09:43 PM
Not rambling at all. Makes me think of God's love, free will etc. Yes, the world would be a much more orderly, peaceful place if we didn't have free will, but we would never experience God's glorious grace if that was so. A very good analogy I think for families where the 'order' is brought about by fear and punishment.

mrsramjet
07-03-2005, 06:32 PM
I'm wondering if the core issue is less that we don't spank, and more that we have a different set of expectations than others.

Overall, I think I have the same expectations in many ways--just seeking to accomplish them on a less "urgent" time table (18 years instead of 2) happy smile --and in many ways I have higher expectations than I did before.


that is just SO GOOD.

i am printing this out as i type.

thanks

Katydid
07-03-2005, 07:47 PM
Now that is just SICK!!!! :( :sick :( :sick Why would someone *joke* about spanking/paddling. :shrug


We were at a friend's house once and thier 7 mo. old was playing with a wooden spoon and the dad said, jokingly "Son, you won't like that spoon as much when I have to use it on your bottom" :cry :bheart Everyone laughed, but I was :eek
(sorry, off topic :O )

Knitted_in_the_womb
07-04-2005, 07:47 AM
Now that is just SICK!!!! :( :sick :( :sick Why would someone *joke* about spanking/paddling. :shrug


Unfortunately, this is far from rare. At my old church last November a speaker said from the pulpit "Children are like canoes, best steered when paddled in the rear." There was a smattering of laughter from the congregation. My husband and I thought about getting up and leaving (this really was just the icing on the cake of a LOT of off the wall stuff this speaker had said during the course of a "revival" he was preaching at our church), but we didn't--we later learned that several people had.

Jenn

cklewis
07-04-2005, 08:18 AM
Yeah, the joking is ridiculous.

We were visiting Stone Mountain, GA which has the beginnings of a Dollywood/Silver-Dollar City theme park (all owned by the same people). And in their "general store" was a big wooden plaque displaying all the "boards of education" and had a bunch of really awful, punitive puns on it. It was "folksy" and horrible.

C

Dizzy Blond
07-05-2005, 01:06 PM
Overall, I think I have the same expectations in many ways--just seeking to accomplish them on a less "urgent" time table (18 years instead of 2) :)

I'll have to remember this line when I explain I'm not about to spank. :) Thanks.

Now to come up with a response to "children survive and even thrive no matter the environment". :/

ArmsOfLove
07-05-2005, 01:10 PM
Camille, when they put up the new children's section of our zoo several years ago they had one of those "board of education" paddles in an old time classroom room. Joanne talked to the zoo management and explained how un-funny it was and they took it down :tu

cklewis
07-05-2005, 01:14 PM
Camille, when they put up the new children's section of our zoo several years ago they had one of those "board of education" paddles in an old time classroom room. Joanne talked to the zoo management and explained how un-funny it was and they took it down :tu

I need to follow her example. :tu

C