I don't know how i could help...

[LadybugSam]

Please excuse me while i rant for a couple minutes, i'm just so angry right now. I started this playgroup with some ladies from my church, i don't know how i'm going to keep doing this..... :cry

I had a meeting this last thursday and it was AWFUL! i actually had to send caleb away because he was so scared of everyone who was there, i would be too. They were hitting thier kids like every 2 minutes, no joke. Caleb just cried and cried and wouldn't leave my lap. it was so sad, for caleb and for those poor little kids. One lady (we'll call her "H") "spanked" her 11 month old *in the face* because she "thought that she might bite her" she didn't even do anything, the mother just *thought* that she *might* bite her. :sa

this one lady (we'll call her "A") was just beating her kids. She has 2 girls, one just turned one and hte other just turned 2. what she was doing couldn't even be considered spanking (not that hitting a baby in the face could be considered spanking either, and i don't agree with spanking) she was full out hitting this little baby so hard (she just turned 2) so hard that i would cry if she hit me like that. and you know what? the child got hit so often that it didn't even flinch. it didn't cry or stop what it was doing or anything. this was just a fact of life for that little girl. :bheart This is the little girl that i have in the nursery that always beats up on the other kids and hits them for no reason. I wonder where she learned that? The mom never did anything else. no telling her child to stop, no warnings, no sending them to play somewhere else. the mom completely ignored both her children the whole time except when she went in there and hit them. then she tells me "i don't know what to do, no matter how hard i hit her, it doesn't seem to affect her." and i told her "well maybe its not working, why don't you try something else" and she was like "what? like a wooden spoon?" :sa

and this is the same lady who doesn't put her child i a car seat! her little girl is just sitting there in teh back seat without a car seat! do i really have to go off about how incredibly dangerous and STUPID that is?! when i asked her about it she told me that she left her car seat at church 2 weeks ago and just hasn't picked it up yet. :sa how could she leave without the car seat in the first place!

i know i should have done something. but i couldn't, i was just in shock the whole time. I wish i could tell them what i wanted to tell them. But i can't get the words out. i don't know what to say until after i've lost my opertunity to say it. I had a dream last night that i told one of them off, i woke up feeling so satisfied.

i don't know what to do. i started this playgroup knowing that not all of the people would be gentle parents. I knew that, but i didn't think it would be like this. I should have mentioned that there was "no spanking" at my house before. I think it would be too akward now. I don't know how to help her. I can't talk! I'm not articulate. I dont' know what to say. I don't know how to teach her about GBD. i don't know if i could help.

I hope one of you can help me with this. i really don't know what to do :cry

[Marzipan]

:cry :hug

[ArmsOfLove]

Oh :hug How traumatic for you and ds :heart

What if you started doing a book study--where you read the book or the chapter and then talk about it at the get together??? Or just start raving about something new you learned and hope they hear you?

I hope the Lord reveals opportunities for you to bless these women who so desparately need help!

Oh--maybe you can pick up the car seat from church and give it to her at the next get together ;)

[inesperada]

On the carseat issue - in most states it's illegal to have a child that young in the car with no carseat - she can be ticketed or turned over to cps for it. I would try to gently ask if she needs some help (financial or otherwise) getting a carseat for her dd, and if she says "oh we just don't want to use one anymore" I'd be first in line to point out that not only is it extremely dangerous, it's extremely illegal. :(

[ellies mom]

I would stop the play group. It isn't much of a "play" group if your child is too scared to leave your lap. If the parents want to know why, I'd just say something to the affect of "DS is frightened by all the spanking. We don't spank him at home, he isn't used to that and doesn't need to be around it" If they try and put you on the defensive, you could mention that clearly it isn't overly effective since they had to spank their children repeatedly and remention what you said about trying something different (and no, not a wooden spoon).

There is a difference between "not gentle" and spanking as the only tool in the toolbox. If you wouldn't expose your child to violent movies and TV shows, you might want to rethink exposing him to that type of violence especially in his home. He was probably waiting to get hit himself.

To be honest though, you might not be able to reach the woman with the car seat. I mean that is pretty obvious, since it is the law. If she can't even understand why a car seat is needed, I don't think she'll get the sutblities that go with GCM. If you want to try though, you may want to get Chrystal's book or one like it and they next time someone says something like "do you mean use a spoon" you could say "Ahh no, I meant maybe you could use some of the ideas in this book" Maybe you could get a few copies knowing that you'll be handing them out. Good luck.

[MarynMunchkins]

Personally, if I knew someone who wasn't using a car seat and I had brought it to them only to have it ignored, I'd call the police, give them her license number and ask them to pull her over. :shrug It's not just illegal, it's DANGEROUS! :td I wouldn't even think twice about it - you are helping to keep her child safe.

If you want to continue the play group, I would set up some guidelines for it, and pass them out at the next meeting. Even if you don't want a blanket "no spanking" rule, I would make one that any spanking of any kind needs to be done in private. And those who don't comply will be asked to leave.

:hug That's sounds really awful. :cry

[purplerose]

At the play group we have here on our base, they let you know ahead of time that NO DISCIPLINING is allowed......ie...no hitting, time-outs, etc. They DO NOT want this done in front of other children. They say that if you feel you need to discipline your child, then you 'gently" take them out of the room and do it in private, or you just leave! When they told me that I was like "YEAH!! Now I don't have to watch moms hit their kids all the time!!" Maybe you can set up some "ground rules" and let everyone know, and if they don't want to adhere to the rules, then they don't have to come. This might be a good way for you to educate people about GD. It's funny isn't it, it's so easy for a punitive parent to tell a GD parent that they should spank, but it's seems that it's hard for a GD parent to tell a punitive parent NOT to spank! :shrug Weird! Hugs, hang in there, hopefully things will get better. :grouphug

[FlyingBlueKiwi]

Personally, if I knew someone who wasn't using a car seat and I had brought it to them only to have it ignored, I'd call the police, give them her license number and ask them to pull her over. :shrug It's not just illegal, it's DANGEROUS! :td I wouldn't even think twice about it - you are helping to keep her child safe.


ITA w/Mary . . . and it sounds like it might be something you will have to decide about.

[J3K]

One lady (we'll call her "H") "spanked" her 11 month old *in the face*

That is NOT spanking. It irritates me when hitters use "spanking" as an excuse to whack their babies. Nothing gets me more riled than seeing a full grown adult back hand a child. And hitting in the face ??? Did she not think of damage ? Nose bleeds ? sorry....I know you are as frustrated , or more so , than we are at this.




i know i should have done something. but i couldn't, i was just in shock the whole time.

Often times when I'm in shock like that I don't end up saying anything either. I'm really vocal about when parents HIT a child and call it 'spanking'. I cannot stand to see children mistreated and will speak out loud about it. I will not speak up however if the parent pulls the child aside , or takes them out to give them their spankings.

i don't know what to do. i started this playgroup knowing that not all of the people would be gentle parents.


I'd end the play group. Or ask someone else to be in charge. I'd be really vocal about WHY you are ending the playgroup also. You were desiring a safe fun place for your kids to interact with others and are discouraged at all the 'spanking' , and other non-gentle discipline measures.

or you could print out some GBD printouts and hand them out at the next meeting.
But personally I wouldn't go back.

[CelticJourney]

One lady (we'll call her "H") "spanked" her 11 month old *in the face*

In my state this is illegal.

What you are describing is not parents who choose to spank - there is some serious abuse going on here. If you started this group from church, you absolutely need to talk to someone there immediately!! There are serious liability concerns (doing the right thing even for the wrong reason is a step) that the church might want to acknowledge.

I would not subject my child to this. I would be very direct that you do not spank, your child was afraid because of the 'physical chastisement' going on and therefore this group does not meet the need you had envisioned. If anyone wants to continue with a 'no-spanking during playgroup' rule you would be glad to continue to organize it, but otherwise you must let this obligation go.

If you want to be really brave, you could point out that some of the things you witnessed at your one meeting fell into the category of child abouse and that if anyone is not clear on what that means, they might want to investigate the local laws. You can not take the risk of being associated with facilitating a group that toletrates abuse in it's meetings.

Gives me shivers just thinking about it.

[hsgbdmama]

:eek I also would end the playgroup, and don't beat around the bush as to why -- tell them that you do not want your son exposed to the abuse you saw going on! :cry Call the cops about the lady without the car seat ... who cares about how she feels, have concern for her child!

You and dh might also want to approach your church's leadership and alert them to the abuse you have seen, perhaps the pastor can help steer a study on GBD ... calling the authorities (i.e., DFS) on this might backfire (that some of these ladies might call them on you just for revenge).

:hug2

[Tex]

Oh my.

Thats def. not spanking. :bheart Thats something that gets CPS called around here, esp in shopping stores. I'd either end the pg, or if you realllly like these ladies I'd give them a chance to keep their abuse out of your home. I think talking to the church is appropriate also. Even the spanking Christians I know are bottom spankers with hand smacking here and there, not face slapping and continual hitting. :sick :mad

I'm sorry you and your child had to witness that.

[jujubnme]

:cry :bheart

[LadybugSam]

I know that i want to confront them, i just dont' know how to do it. I think i need to write something out and get it concrete in my head what i want to say. I dont' want to do it when i'm still upset, i don't want them to just blow me off as overly permissive or that i'm just way too "out there" for anything that i say to be relevent to them. I know i'm going to have trouble with the woman with the two little girls ("A") because both her and her husband encourage their children to be agressive, which they later punish them for when its "not the appropriate time/situation." But i know that she wants help. she really doesn't understand why her children are acting this way, and she has told me that she just doesn't know what to do when it comes to dicipline.

Maybe i could write a letter saying that we don't spank in our home and...what? what should i say? Maybe we could have a lesson about gentle dicipline. I could back it up with scripture. I can put together some kind of packette to give to the women at the next meeting. we did do a lesson at our first meeting but we haven't done anything sinse then. I'll have to look for articles. If only i hadn't lost my copy of biblical parenting that has a lot of scripture in it.

I don't think i could talk to the pastor about this. I know that he spanks, and that "A" is a good friend of his, he is mentoring her husband. But maybe i should talk to him, i think that maybe they would receive the message better if it comes from a friend. the husband seems very agressive and controlling, i don't know if he would accept advise from me, especially sinse he has more than once commented on how my son was such a sissy. He's 18 months old! ugh. I guess that if i did do a message on GBD i wouldn't have to worry about losing playgroup members, it wouldn't be such a loss.

Maybe i should just stop the playgroup. I don't need this in my life right now. I have other places where i could be in the company of other gentle mothers, but i really wanted to help with my church. I know that in a couple weeks, i might have the opertunity to talk to another lady about taking over this ministry. she's already offered her house as a meeting place. I just don't want to let go. I had such high hopes, but unfortunatly i overestimated my...ability to communicate/educate. Talk like a normal person. I really can't put into words what i'm trying to say. I used to be so good at that but i seem to have lost it.

thanks for listening to me rant! I'm so glad that i have a place to come and discuss this with women who understand and who seem to have a great collective knollege of how to deal with this and how to minister. Thank you so much for your kind replies and your advise. You have no idea how much it has helped me. especially to know that i'm not the only one who would get upset about this, nobody else there seemed to realize that there was something wrong.

[MarynMunchkins]

Sam, I had a thought. :idea

About 2 months ago, I sent out an email promoting GBD. I simply shared how it had changed my life and how grateful I was, and added a bunch of links to positive websites. Crystal's, Joanne's, and a few others. Then I added a list of books to read, and added that most of them were in the library. It was very positive and nonconfrontational. :tu

Maybe something like that would set the tone for your playgroup. Than you could bring it up at the playgroup, and tell them that since you are using positive discipline, it scares your ds to see others being hit. If they choose to spank, it needs to be done in private. Could you actively read a GBD book within the play group and discuss it when you get together?

I understand wanting to be actively involved in the church, and I think you could have tremendous impact there. :D But I would make sure that your ds is safe and unscathed while you are trying to have that impact. If you feel that he's not, I'd end it and not ever regret it. :hug

[CelticJourney]

I don't think i could talk to the pastor about this. I know that he spanks, and that "A" is a good friend of his, he is mentoring her husband. But maybe i should talk to him, i think that maybe they would receive the message better if it comes from a friend.

There are 'spankers' and then there are 'abusers' and I know for many of us here the gray zone in between is very troubling. 1) your pastor may not know the extent of the physical discipline going on - men don't get together and talk about the kids like we do and 2) there are legal ramifications for abuse going on in your church and in church activies. Even if he's heart is not into encouraging changes, his head should tell him it is wise (doing the right thing for the wrong reason). I would approach it from two angels with the pastor, it was disturbing to you to witness x,y.x and from your understanding a,b and c are illegal and you are concerned about the children foremost, but secondarily, the churches liability.

Maybe i should just stop the playgroup. I don't need this in my life right now. I have other places where i could be in the company of other gentle mothers, but i really wanted to help with my church. I know that in a couple weeks, i might have the opertunity to talk to another lady about taking over this ministry. she's already offered her house as a meeting place. I just don't want to let go. I had such high hopes, but unfortunatly i overestimated my...ability to communicate/educate. Talk like a normal person. I really can't put into words what i'm trying to say. I used to be so good at that but i seem to have lost it.

You probably have trouble articulating what you want to say because it is so close to your heart and because the ramifications can be somewhat 'explosive' when parenting choices are discussed and disagreed about.

Pray about it, that's the only way you will know. I had a friend who led our homeschool group and she once said 'I asked God if I could please give this up and He said no, so here I am again'.


As for communicating with the group, maybe a recognition that things did not go well last time and a call for suggestions:

Dear friends, during our last playgroup I noticed that the atmosphere became a little tense. I would like to discuss ways and ask for suggestions to help our time together with our children more serene. First, is the time still appropriate for everyone (I'm sure you discussed this before, but maybe there has been some change). Would a different location work better, such as the church or the park where we might have more room. And lastly, some of you may or may not know that we have been led to discipline without physical punishment, therefore I didn't realize until our last meeting that this issue might come up regarding the playgroup. In order to keep the play area as peaceful as possible, I would like to suggest that any physical punishment be done away from the group. I am not comfortable with physcial punishment in my home and hope that everyone will honor my position. I am unsure if the unhappiness with the children was fatigue, being too close together, or in reaction to the crys of other children, but I know we can improve our time together so that we can support and encourage oneanother.

[LadybugSam]

I understand wanting to be actively involved in the church, and I think you could have tremendous impact there. :D But I would make sure that your ds is safe and unscathed while you are trying to have that impact. If you feel that he's not, I'd end it and not ever regret it. :hug


thank you so much for that. That really clarified things for me. Its all about priorities.

I'm definantly going to write a letter, i started off using elcollins's letter and just kind of edited it to fit my situaton

Dear friends,

During our last playgroup I noticed that the atmosphere became a little tense. I would like to discuss ways and ask for suggestions to help our time together with our children more serene. First, is the time and day of the week still appropriate for everyone? Would you like to meet earlier ot later in the day so that it doesn't interfere with nap time?

Would a different location work better, such as the park or a larger house where we might have more room? I know it gets tight in my tiny apartment and i know that the kids have a lot of energy. We have a park by my house that we can go to if you'd think the kids be happier there, where they can get out thier energy (and hopefully take nice LONG naps once you get home so we can get some work done, haha).

And lastly, some of you may or may not know that we have been led to discipline without physical punishment, therefore I didn't realize until our last meeting that this issue might come up regarding the playgroup. In order to keep the play area as peaceful as possible, I must insist that any physical punishment be done away from the group. I am not comfortable with physcial punishment in my home and hope that everyone will honor my position.

I am unsure if the unhappiness with the children was fatigue, being too close together, or in reaction to the crys of other children, but I know we can improve our time together so that we can support and encourage one another.

and then i was thinking about either writing a letter about GBD and enclosing it with the letter or to maybe do a small "lesson" type thing in a couple weeks.

thank you so much for your ideas and suggestions! i really do appreciate it.

[MarynMunchkins]

:tu Great letter! It sounds fabulous! :D

[callasandra]

When my children were young I did spank them on occasion, but what you described was abuse, not spanking. Even though I spanked, I could not tolerate seeing that sort of thing happen to children. Not only would it make me sick, I would not want my children exposed to it. I would definately have had to separate myself from those people. I was in a Bible study group like that when my oldest was 18m and after being called a disobedient Christian for not agreeing with what I saw (I was and still am not a very strong supporter of spanking which of course puts me on the Christian bad list) I stopped going to that group real fast. My thought is don't expose yourself or your child to that sort of thing, people like that have their minds set in concrete and all we get is high blood presssure from being around them.
Callasandra

[CelticJourney]

and then i was thinking about either writing a letter about GBD and enclosing it with the letter or to maybe do a small "lesson" type thing in a couple weeks.

Be very careful - you have to be sensitive to not openly criticize their parenting style (at least right now :shifty). In your letter you said 'we decided x, please honor that'. You need to let the dust settle on that before taking any further steps or it might come back to haunt you (unless of course God as told you to, then go for it...)

[hsgbdmama]

I also would refrain from providing GBD information -- unsolicited -- at this point. See how they respond to your request to honor your decision. If someone asks about GBD, then by all means provide that person with the information! :heart

[Knitted_in_the_womb]

i don't know what to do. i started this playgroup knowing that not all of the people would be gentle parents. I knew that, but i didn't think it would be like this. I should have mentioned that there was "no spanking" at my house before. I think it would be too akward now. I don't know how to help her. I can't talk! I'm not articulate. I dont' know what to say. I don't know how to teach her about GBD. i don't know if i could help.

I hope one of you can help me with this. i really don't know what to do :cry


I attend a moms' Bible study at my church on Wednesday mornings. This week we went over our "group covenant" just to make sure the group agreed with the "rules" and "purpose" of the group as it had originally been set up. The talk went really well. I would imagine you could do something similar with your group. Just start out next time "I feel like we should talk about what we want as rules for this group." Start with talking about things like snacks, contacting the hostess if you will not be coming, or other "non-sensitive" issues. Then discuss discipline. Just say "I know some children are upset by viewing the discipline of other children and may even imitate spanking in their play. Because of that, please use gentle verbal correction with your children or redirection. I've created a Quiet Time corner (here), where you can bring your child to calm down if he or she needs a bit of a break to get behavior under control." Expect to get some resistance...but stand firm--we are all with you in spirit!

Hugs! :cookie :hkiss

Jenn