Discipline needs to hurt?

[UltraMother]

I have been pondering this statement by a former-Mouseketeer-turned homeschooling mom (you know which one I mean). I also know several real-life people who would agree with her. What is your best (or favorite) argument against this reasoning? I know from my own children's examples that is perfectly possible to discipline without them, but I am trying form a witty yet concrete argument in my head.

[ArmsOfLove]

Well I ask how they explain all of the many things that people learn without pain :shrug Since discipline means "to teach" it seems to me that we teach many many things without pain. They can only say the above if they believe that discipline is the same as punishment and they aren't the same thing :(

[Titus2:5Catholic]

Some people take lack of pain meaning you think that discipline should never be "uncomfortable" for a child. And in that sense, I agree- discipline hurts. It makes us grow. It is uncomfortable. Guiding our will is always a difficult process; if it were easy, we wouldn't be in the state we were in. GBD may be gentle, but that doesn't mean we shield our children from all the uncomfortable results of their poor choices or wrong actions.

To translate that to PHYSICAL pain, though, is a big step and one that is not warranted.

[DebraBaker]

I think people are operating on reverse logic. Sometimes discipline is painful but pain does not need to accompany discipline.

Discipline comes from the same Greek word as Disciple (as in Jesus and His Disciples) Think of the different personalities within Jesus' inner circle of 12. For someone like Peter discipline hurts because he was so headstrong and stubborn. John, on the other hand, was beloved and had a much more sensitive and teachable temperment.

Debra Baker

[TulipMama]

I think the idea comes from the way people approach Hebrews 12:

Hebrews 12:7-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2012;&version=47;)
7It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

One analogy that I've found helpful is comparing discipline with our children and in other areas of life to discipline in exercise.

Both with toddlers and sit-ups, it takes a lot of repetition to see results. And that can be unpleasant, if not downright painful at times! I think the exercise analogy fits well with this passage because of how Hebrews 12 begins,

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith. . ."

My children do not always like discipline. Sometimes it is painful--any time we look at our sin and acknowledge it for what it is, is painful. Repentance brings relief, but can also be painful. When I help my boys see their sin, they don't like it. They struggle within themselves before they come to a willingness to repent and turn to God. It is not easy. I am disciplining them, discipling them--but I am not purposefully inflicting physical pain.

I see acknowledging our sin and turning to God for grace, turning to God in repentance as being so key in incorporating the Gospel in our life. And it does require repetition, discipline and isn't easy. . .

I think Titus2:5Catholic summed it up well,

Some people take lack of pain meaning you think that discipline should never be "uncomfortable" for a child. And in that sense, I agree- discipline hurts. It makes us grow. It is uncomfortable. . . . To translate that to PHYSICAL pain, though, is a big step and one that is not warranted.

[IslandMama]

TulipMama, that's exactly what came to my mind too! :highfive I think about my life and the mistakes I make, and God allows these things to happen to me... Sometimes my experiences are painful, though not always physically, and I learn from them. Inflicting pain on a child is a different story...though I know of people who use Hebrews 12 to justify spanking as being painful discipline...

[mama j]

Hebrews 12:7-11
7It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

It helps me to read this verse and replace the word discipline with the word teach or taught, etc. Many believe that discipline=punishment. I have a friend that says she is stricter than me because she discipline's. :rolleyes To her the word only means punishment. She doesn't make the connection between discipline and disciple. So when she reads this verse she hears "punishment" when she sees the word discipline.

[IslandMama]

I looked up the definition of "discipline" online, and here's what I found:

1. Training expected to produce a specific character or pattern of behavior, especially training that produces moral or mental improvement.
2. Controlled behavior resulting from disciplinary training; self-control.
3. a. Control obtained by enforcing compliance or order.
b. A systematic method to obtain obedience: a military discipline.
c. A state of order based on submission to rules and authority: a teacher who demanded discipline in the classroom.
4. Punishment intended to correct or train.
5. A set of rules or methods, as those regulating the practice of a church or monastic order.
6. A branch of knowledge or teaching.

I guess I can see why people would equate discipline with punishment, but I know for my family, it means so much more... Would you consider logical or natural consequences as punishment??? Ok, the more I think about it, the more confused I get! :shrug All I know is I've stopped spanking and trying my best to practice positive/gentle discipline... :heart