Heart still hurting

[Chris3jam]

Well. Our SS class is really starting to hurt and hinder me, instead of help. We thought it would be good, and dh agrees completely with it, of course, being punitive. But, as the pastor spoke yesterday of children trying to "control" situations and parents by their behaviour, and to punish parents by having tantrums, etc., I just literally felt sick to my stomach. But. . . . how can a body of 500 people be "wrong", and me be the only one "right"? It's so hard! And he doesn't call on me anymore in "class". Hmmm. I wonder it he can see it in my face.

He talked about negative reinforcement, and positive reinforcement. It just sounded SO demeaning! :(

I did talk to someone after class, and casually mentioned that, having probably done more studies than pastor on the neurological development of children, etc., that I didn't see things the same way. I saw them as developmental stepstones, not malicious behaviours, that needed to be dealt with properly. Children ARE born "selfish". All they know is what they need, when they need it, and what they want and they want it now. When they are infants, that is ok. When they start growing up, we start to teach them appropriate behaviours, by modelling and instruction.

I know I'm preaching to the choir. But, I still need support and affirmation. Yes, I'm that pathetic. :( But, Sundays are so hard on me now. I so want to talk to pastor about these things, but, as goes along with the mentality of "control", and men being the authority and teachers, I am just a peon, and not knowledgeable enough, in his eyes, to know what I am talking about, probably. (they would probably perform an excorcism! :D)

Perhaps I will recommend a book to him (others have; books like the one Lisa Welchel wrote :(). I have "Families Where Grace is in Place" and "How would Jesus Raise a Child?". Should I take a chance?

PS -- Dh was still mad at the dinner I made Sat. night. I made ham (which I knew 3 yo dd would eat), mac-n-cheese (which I knew 9 yo ds would eat), green beans, and salad was available, as well as biscuits. I also warmed up some raviolis (which 7 yo ds would eat). So, I think I did a good job -- trying to make everyone happy. Except dh, of course. He wanted mashed potatoes and red-eye gravy, and was upset that I was "cooking for the children" instead of for him. He thinks that, as head of the house, everything should be done with his ideals and tastes in mind (from cleaning to cooking), and the children should "fall in line", or pay the price (punitive consequences, etc.). (BTW, these were all foods he really likes too, especially the ham and beans and biscuits.) I GBD'd him -- I explained exaclty what I was doing and why, and said that I understood he was disappointed, etc. When the subject of food, and cleaning plates, etc., came up in class, he started to pose a question, which I know was based on that night's dinner. He SO wanted to show me how wrong I was for what I did! Fortunately, they didn't get to it! :D

*sigh*

[Mamaka]

(((hug)))

I'd recommend a book to your Pastor, that sounds like a good idea.

And your dinner sounds wonderful and your response to your dh graceful.

[MarynMunchkins]

Personally, if I was going to recommend a book to your pastor, I'd recommend "Grace-Based Parenting" by Tim Kimmel. It's fabulous, and while it doesn't address spanking in depth, it does do away with *many* punitive mindsets. It's also endorsed by James Dobson, and a couple other "big" pastors, which is a bonus for a more mainstream audience.

And :rolleyes at your dh. Isn't it nice to have 4 people pitching a fit over dinner instead of just the 3 kids? :P It sounds to me like you did a great job handling it! :tu

[Dizzy Blond]

:hug And when do children stop being selfish? Is it an instant thing when we become adults or become parents? As adults, are we not selfish? And that's why the family needs to be adult centered? Because adults intentions are always pure and selfless and childrens intentions are always selfish? I'd recommend the "Families where Grace ..." book, Chris. Your pastor's teaching is more along the lines "I get to have my family revolve around me and I'm justified in it" than it is about teaching kids not to be selfish. Lead by example. :mrgreen

[Soliloquy]

:hug This has got to be sooooo hard. :hug

Just my 2 cents, if your DH would like to know why the household shouldn't revolve around the dad (or the mom), I can tell him. My mom catered to my dad my whole childhood. Meals were planned around what he liked and my mom even backed down on her own decorating ideas if dad didn't like it. Well, I won't go too much into my own personal history but that mentality teaches young girls that their inner voice shouldn't be listened too--that if the man in their life says to do xyz, then they should do it even if their gut tells them it's a bad idea. It took me a long time to be able to look for a man who loved and respected me for who God made me--and would treat me as an equal in the partnership. To this day I have no respect for my father--I view him as a spoiled, over-grown toddler who metphorically stomps his feet and whines when he doesn't get his way. I call him and allow him to visit out of duty, not out of any desire to spend time with him.

I 2nd (or 4th?) the suggestion to offer Tim Kimmel's book--mostly because it's endorsed by Dobson, a man that many punitive-minded people respect. I know this situation must be difficult, but ask God to help you if He's planning on using you as an agent of change. Try to imagine what it will be like if God effect change in the hearts of the people in your church. :tu

I'll keep you and your church in my :pray.

[Chris3jam]

I'd recommend "Grace-Based Parenting" by Tim Kimmel.

I 2nd (or 4th?) the suggestion to offer Tim Kimmel's book--mostly because it's endorsed by Dobson, a man that many punitive-minded people respect.

Does anyone have a copy of Kimmel's book to sell, or that I could borrow for a few weeks? I have the other two books, but not that one (that one was in my Amazon list, before dh lost his job and funds were drastically cut!). I would love to read it, and then let him borrow it. We only have a few more weeks of class, though, so timing would be tight! I would hate to get it from the library (I don't think ours has it anyway), if I'm going to let someone else borrow it also, you know?

[Chris3jam]

I also have "Heartfelt Discipline", by Clay Clarkson. I haven't had time to read it yet --- do you think that would be a good one to suggest to him?

[booboo]

Maybe I'm just very tired..but I think I would recommend The Discipline Book by Dr. William and Martha Sears. They explain the "rod" verses and even recommend things like praying over the child, if one hurt them. (have the hurt-er help the hurt-ed for example)

As far as your dh goes, what about the verses saying for the husbands to "love your wives." And that both should submit to each other? Then there's "Fathers, don't provoke your children to anger."

hth! :hug

[katiekind]

Oh gosh, if you've got Heartfelt Discipline, but haven't read it, READ IT, friend! :hug Seriously, you'll feel so validated. Perfect antidote for your class. :hug

And yes, it might be good for your pastor. (I mean, what's the worst that can happen?) It does offer an exegesis of the rod verses that I think is very helpful. And then the whole rest of the book is on loving guidance-style discipline. I suspect the Kimmel book has an advantage if it is recommended by Dobson, but Clarkson really does understand the conservative Christian world, he is of that world.

[cklewis]

Yes, yes!! Read Heartfelt Discipline!! You'll feel very validated.

If I know your pastor like I think I do (and I do! ;) ), Kimmel and Clarkson are the best bets. Clarkson is the first choice though. Then Kimmel. Kimmel's Why do Christian Kids Rebel? might be better than Grace-Based Discipline. I know that may not sound right to those of you who have read both, but I know this guy. :rolleyes

Don't give him How Would Jesus Raise A Child?. I love the book -- adore it. But that will not work for him. It's written by a female :rolleyes , and it's written from a more mainline liberal Protestant POV. It'll give him more fuel for his fire.

But let me ask -- why are you going to these classes? Do you have to? I mean, it sounds like you're setting yourself up for failure. If I were you, I'd get myself validated with the proper books and live my life graciously. Do you need to tell your very egocentric pastor how he's missing the boat? maybe I'm missing something. . . .

Praying for you, honey. I know you're in a difficult place right now. :hug

C

[Soliloquy]

Don't give him How Would Jesus Raise A Child?. I love the book -- adore it. But that will not work for him. It's written by a female :rolleyes ,

Ok, I don't know this pastor, but based on what Camille wrote, I feel for you! Yikes!

[TulipMama]

Thinking of you today. Praying for you today.

[DebraBaker]

Quote,

" So, I think I did a good job -- trying to make everyone happy. Except dh, of course. He wanted mashed potatoes and red-eye gravy, and was upset that I was "cooking for the children" instead of for him. He thinks that, as head of the house, everything should be done with his ideals and tastes in mind (from cleaning to cooking), and the children should "fall in line", or pay the price (punitive consequences, etc.). (BTW, these were all foods he really likes too, especially the ham and beans and biscuits.) I GBD'd him -- I explained exaclty what I was doing and why"

Your husband is *acting* like a spoiled child and treating *you* like you were put on this planet to cater to his whims.

He is being a poor example (because of both things) to your children especially your boys. If you don't want your future DIL's hating your guts I wouldn't feed that.

That being said I spent my early adult life in a hyperfundie hypersubmission teaching church and I catered to my husbands puccuine nitpickey and *unhealthy* dietary demands and I am still paying the whirlwind for it to this day. I have warned him my days of this are growing short because I'm taking 16 credits this fall including Bio and Chem together and everyone (sans Julianna) will be taking his turn in the kitchen.

Mashed potatoes and red eye gravey sounds like you spared his arteries of that goop.

Give him two days/week of kitchen duty and let *him* make his red eye gravey (whatever that is.)

Debra Baker

[cklewis]

Chris --

I want to commend you for GBDing your DH and setting your whole family up for success. It's not easy to turn from a combative "Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus" mindset -- just like it's not easy going from being punitive with your kids to being gracious. It's hard. It takes time. Yelling at him, scolding him, etc. may be satisfying in the short run, but for the long haul -- especially as you're prayerfully moving toward GBD -- your firm but grace-filled response is best. You're doing great, mama. Brava!! :clap

I think sometimes we forget that those who are punitive -- whether DHs or pastors or friends -- are not evil, but mistaken. As passionate as they may be, as firm as they may sound, as much influence as they wield, they are often simply ignorant. They haven't had the epiphany of Grace that the rest of us have had. They just don't know any better. And making fun or throwing mud-balls or making threats doesn't work with them just like it doesn't work with our kids.

And btw, my FIL insisted (still does!) that his wife cater to his dietary whims. And my DH and my BIL both are not at all the same. They are, in fact, the exact opposite from their Dad in many ways. So it's not a threat looming over you that your DILs will hate you. I love my MIL!

And you know why my DH and BIL are not like their dad? You know why it didn't all depend on my MIL standing up to my FIL? Because it's not all about us!! I think we sometime forget that it's not all about what we do because God is in charge. He takes over. He fills in the holes in the foundations. He turns ashes into oil and gives joy for mourning.

Thank the good Lord that wooing your DH to GBD, Chris, as well as wooing your pastor to gentler parenting is not all about your standing up or speaking out. It's in God's hands. He may use us as weak vessels, but we're not all He's got.

Don't let the chumps get you down. Don't let the threats make you sad. God's watching over you. And He's carrying you close all the day long.

C

[Grover]

How very sad.I think you handled this with more humility and dignity than I would have done. :pray.
Maybe you could suggest that instead of these meetings which you are not finding helpful you and DH could use the time to reconnect.
Secondly maybe mistakenly I feel that there should be boundaries set by you-for dh.Bringing that information up at a public meeting being the top one.