Moving Away From Pearl Teachings

[TulipMama]

Thats true....he says it rather often. Plus he is so strangely charismatic...and instills fear on behalf of your childs soul. Perhaps we could make a thread on here to discuss the teachings and moving away from them?? I know it would help me a lot.

As suggested by ServingGod on Titus2:5Catholic's thread (http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=12820.0). . .


Here's a place to start discussing things that we are struggling with / succeeding with as we move away from Pearlesque teachings.

[Titus2:5Catholic]

Ok, I'll be the first to bite:

Things I'm struggling with:

His teachings work. They do. Not as "perfectly" as he says- I would never leave my kids and take a nap, for example, but it did improve the behavior of my kids; my oldest son drastically. This doesn't seem to work as well.

Re-attaching w/ my DD, who it made somewhat detached and angry. Has anyone else had to "re-attach"?

Changing my expectations and views on what appropriate behavior is.

What I'm succeeding with:

I've already seen results w/ my DD as far as our relationship

I'm enjoying being a parent SO much more

My kids aren't being hit anymore.

[ArmsOfLove]

Well just to offer some encouragement--you said I would never leave my kids and take a nap I do--most days. My 7, 5 and 3 yo's do perfectly fine while I take a nap and took care of each other when I was horribly sick during this pg and hardly got out of bed for over a month.

As for what's not working as well, especially with your ds, I would suspect it's the transition and that just takes time to get through :hug

[MarynMunchkins]

I did Ezzo and Pearl pretty hard-core with Doug. :( He didn't like to be held from day 1, and it only made things seem more right. When we started GBD, I definitely had to work at re-attaching with him. I'm not sure we're attached yet - but there are some health issues that we're working through that may contribute.

I tell you what, though - health issues or no - it breaks my heart to think that the anger and violence that I see in my ds came from me. :bheart I have a hard time forgiving myself for that. :cry

Thankfully, God's already forgiven me. :heart And ds and I have come a long way in the past year. :D

(Oh, and I fall asleep with my kids up and about. I don't *go take a nap*, but I have no problem drifting off on the couch while they're coloring or watching a video. :) )

[TulipMama]

Re-attaching w/ my DD, who it made somewhat detached and angry. Has anyone else had to "re-attach"?

Yes. Definitely. I found adapting a lot of the "baby" attachment techniques helped in rebuilding attachment with my older children who needed it. LOTS of physical affection and snuggling.

[Titus2:5Catholic]

As for what's not working as well, especially with your ds, I would suspect it's the transition and that just takes time to get through :hug


I actually thought about starting a thread on this....it seems like a lot of parents here are struggling with a lot of problems....problems you wouldn't see among punative parenting. Why do you think that is? I do see more HN/SN using these methods; probably because punative parenting would be a disaster w/ those children, and I see that. I also realize people are posting w/ their problems not their successes, but it just does seem like there is a high amount of "this doesn't work" threads or violent/out of control/backtalking behavior from normal kids.....

I'm putting this here because I have absolutely no desire to offend anyone, nor do I want to discourage any moms from posting with their problems, but I have to say this really concerns me.

[MarynMunchkins]

Well, I never backtalked (:rolleyes hate that word...) or hit my parents when I was young, but I knew I'd get a spanking if I did. :shrug It wasn't an option. Frankly, I wasn't allowed to express my opinion, and I quickly learned to lie if necessary because it kept me out of trouble. I lied to my mom until I was 22 and had 3 kids because it kept the peace. :blush

And I did hit my mom when I was 17. She slapped me across the face, and I slapped her back. :blush I wasn't afraid of her any longer and I knew I could leave home and there was nothing she could do about it. So I don't really think not hitting when I was 4 made any difference in that regard.

I know the reason I wanted to GBD was because the spankings weren't working for my kids either. And I found myself spanking more often and I was angry almost all the time. :cry Personally, I know enough punitive parents who either 1) have kids too afraid to do these things or 2) have kids that do them, but they won't discuss them because they don't want to look like bad parents. I'm the only one I know IRL who has ever said "I have a problem with my 5 year old calling me stupid." The only response I get is "Well, I would never let my child say that". :rolleyes

I don't want my kids to hit me or yell at me or call me ugly names, just like any other parent. But I refuse to hit, yell, or call them ugly names (like spoiled brat) in order to accomplish that. And I know that Pearl insists that you should never hit (spank) in anger, but I never managed to figure that out. :neutral

I think one of the reasons people post with their problems is because GBD is such a new way of thinking. We need all the help we can get to brainstorm what to do. It's contrary to everything we've ever been taught. :( We have to learn how to reflect feelings and teach appropriate responses instead of spanking or using time-out. And it's hard to change your whole mindset, and you end up unsure of what you should do. Kids sense that, and push to see exactly where the boundaries are. When you're not sure yourself, it makes sense that you're going to deal with more issues.

But I can see a definite difference in my kids. Not only are they more well-behaved, so am I. :O I see more sensitivity and compassion in my children that I did when I was spanking. I'd rather see those in a preschooler than the ability to keep his mouth shut when angry. KWIM? :)

[erinee]

Sara, I think it's partly because GBD is a gradual process of teaching, not a quick fix to any problem. I think punitive parenting can *seem* to yield results more immediately, but GBD produces longer-lasting results -- it works on the heart, not just the outward behavior. So many of us here have young children and are still in the midst of the teaching process and just haven't seen the results. GBD isn't just a quick fix, so we have to allow time for our children to grow and learn. I am just now starting to see positive results of GBD in my 7-year-old. THere have always been *some* positive results (for example, he has never ever been physically violent in any way with anyone), but I am really starting to see him grow into a sensitive, caring, thinking kid. It just takes time. My 3-year-old is still right in the midst of the learning process, but it's easier now to trust that she will grow in much the same way, because I'm seeing it in my son.

[ArmsOfLove]

I do see more HN/SN using these methods; probably because punative parenting would be a disaster w/ those children, and I see that.

Well, a few reasons actually :)

Many parents seek something other than punishments when they have a high needs or special needs child because the punishments just aren't working. So they may have *successfully* punitively parented 3 children but that 4th comes along and blows their theories out of the water and they have to seek out something new. Then they find their way here :)

Also, in many punitive circles the idea of high needs or special needs children is chalked up to bad parenting so people who have hn/sn children just keep their mouths shut and keep trying to punish, feeling incredible guilt that they're beating their children and not getting the *results* they'd get if they were a good parent :( IOW, someone not talking about their hn/sn child doesn't mean they don't have one and aren't silently suffering :cry

We understand that there are real and valid special needs some children and families face, and we believe in the reality of high needs children. Unless you've had one you can't understand what it's like. But someone posting about their very real issues isn't going to be shamed here so women are finally able to open up about their struggles and challenges in ways they never could at more punitive sites.

Yet we do not consider hn or sn to be an *excuse* for poor behavior! I'd never tell someone, "Your child is high needs--you just have to endure this." That would be a permissive approach. There are GBD tools that will be effective! And there are ways to set boundaries--in fact high needs children need MORE boundaries!

As for posts about this or that not working--GBD is an approach to parenting, not a technique, not a list of do this and do that. Within GBD there are many many tools that will be effective with different children! I believe that God gave each parent their children because they are the best parents for their children and it's not my desire to tell them how to discipline in every situation, but to help them build their toolbox and get creative and learn how to best discipline their own children, entrusted to them--not me.

When people make *any* change in life, serious paradigm shift changes, things usually get worse before they get better. That's just the way it is--people have to get used to something new. Even Pearl says you'll have to spank a lot in the beginning so you can spank less later on--that's the punitive version of "things will get worse before they get better". And when someone is making that paradigm shift to GBD from a punitive mindset they are going to have to ask a lot more questions. On a punitive board you can ask, 'What do I do for this? or this? or this?' and the answer will be "spank" (or various forms of punishments) but it's typically a one size fits all. Here we're going to help mom think through the situation, find the root or the heart of the problem, proactively work to prevent it, teach her child, set boundaries, etc. And when MomA asks about yelling and we help her find a solution, that solution might not work for MomB so she asks about her situation and we help her find a solution that will work for her family. Before the old boards went down you could see this better as you checked out the archives--we're still building the archives here ;)

I can honestly say that, overall, I have excellently behaved children! We have our days, but overall I enjoy my children, am not afraid to take them out in public, do not dread the days ahead, and know that they trust and respect me and will step up when I make it clear to them what is expected. I trust them to behave whether I'm present or not. They are helpful to one another and to me. They are well spoken, have healthy boundaries, can identify and state their feelings clearly, and are not afraid of me. I could go on.

But we do have challenges. I have one special needs child and one high needs child, a 3yo (nuff said ;) ), and twin babies! Yet I can still say all of the above. And when we run into problems I pray on them, think on them, get us through in the moment and learn from it. Sometimes I need a perspective shift, sometimes I need an attitude adjustment ;), sometimes I need to reign things in because I've slipped into permissiveness, sometimes I need to back off because I'm thinking punitively, usually I walk inside the healthy parameters :)

I will also be honest and say that I have noticed on punitive boards that the punitive thinking permeates--affecting not only the parenting advice given but the attitudes among the members. There is no grace--if something is wrong with your child's behavior then something is wrong with you and the way you are parenting. This leads to people putting on a show and not being as transparent as they tend to be here--where we won't judge them. No one is going to be blamed for their child's adhd dx--though we will offer what we've found to be effective for treatment, maintenance, *and* discipline.

I've worked with children for a long time and I've seen the incredibly punitive families who look perfect from the outside have the parents leave my Sunday School classroom and their children become little terrors because their exterior control is gone :rolleyes Yet those parents could honestly tell people that their Sunday School teacher never complained about their child--because I handled things in the classroom and didn't see a reason to *report* back to the parents and get the child in trouble when the issue was handled and done. I've seen lots of controlled and heavily punished children become rebellious teens, reject God, go wild, all sorts of negative things :( What you think you see from the outside is not always what you get on the inside.

[Titus2:5Catholic]

Thank you all for being so honest and not getting offended. I'm really just trying to work this through in my mind.

Also, in many punitive circles the idea of high needs or special needs children is chalked up to bad parenting so people who have hn/sn children just keep their mouths shut and keep trying to punish, feeling incredible guilt that they're beating their children and not getting the *results* they'd get if they were a good parent IOW, someone not talking about their hn/sn child doesn't mean they don't have one and aren't silently suffering

I think punitive parenting can *seem* to yield results more immediately, but GBD produces longer-lasting results -- it works on the heart, not just the outward behavior.

I don't want my kids to hit me or yell at me or call me ugly names, just like any other parent. But I refuse to hit, yell, or call them ugly names (like spoiled brat) in order to accomplish that. And I know that Pearl insists that you should never hit (spank) in anger, but I never managed to figure that out.

All this makes a great deal of sense to me. It's true- you're just not spanking enough, or being consistant enough, etc. I remember reading somewhere that if you were consistant 100 times and messed up once, then you ruined those 100 times- think it was Pearl, maybe SACH? Well, then I am doomed to failure.

You know, I think the hardest thing for me is to say "This is what we're doing because it's the right thing to do"- period. DH thinks that is a big portion of my problem; that I"m constantly second guessing my decision if it seems like it's not working. That's part of my personality; always has been. But it's true I have a hard time being confident in my parenting decisions and this detour I took in to punative parenting only increased that, because I don't trust my instincts anymore, KWIM? It is really important to me to be able to show the people who are going to question me that this "works", and I know it shouldn't be.

[katiekind]

Thank you all for being so honest and not getting offended. I'm really just trying to work this through in my mind.

Not at all, it is a really good question and I'm sure it pops up in peoples' minds who DON'T ask, so it's great to get an opportunity to talk about this! :hug (You've been wonderful to have here! Don't apologize!!!)

[Lantern Light Mama]

GBD really works. My son went from not liking to be held and snuggled to giving kisses, hugs, and saying please and thankyou. We have had our trials but it is well worth it. I feel much more bonded with him now. I am IRL on the lonesome road of "not spanking" besides the support I get on this board. Most if my family has been greatly infuenced by punitive parenting methods, and they question my choice not to spank my little DS.

Even my husband who can err towards the punitive side has had a change of heart. Not all at once but he understands the concept little by little, and that he does not have to spank our son just because his parents spanked him. Sometimes I know he mentions to me that we should but I tell him no, because what would he learn besides anger if we did that?

I want for him to know that he is loved, and offer him gentle discipline and guidance. I wouldn't spank my DH for not picking up after himself so why not give the same respect to my children?

I am not saying that it is always easy or everything is prefect but DS is so much happier and so am I knowing that there are other options.

[MarynMunchkins]

:hug You wouldn't believe how many conversations I've had with my dh about this stuff and how many hours I've read information. :lol

Also, in many punitive circles the idea of high needs or special needs children is chalked up to bad parenting so people who have hn/sn children just keep their mouths shut and keep trying to punish, feeling incredible guilt that they're beating their children and not getting the *results* they'd get if they were a good parent IOW, someone not talking about their hn/sn child doesn't mean they don't have one and aren't silently suffering

Along this line...I was thinking last night...:think My older brother was always classified as the "bad kid" of the family. He had the "bad attitude", "backtalked", and generally didn't get along with anyone. My parents tried 5000 different things with him, and ended up just chalking it up to him being a problem. When he was 17, he was diagnosed as bi-polar. :( That was the issue, and it was ignored and punished all those years because they assumed it was a sin problem instead of a physical one. FTR, my brother has not *spoken* to my parents in 12 years. :(

[Chris3jam]

You know, I think the hardest thing for me is to say "This is what we're doing because it's the right thing to do"- period. DH thinks that is a big portion of my problem; that I"m constantly second guessing my decision if it seems like it's not working. That's part of my personality; always has been. But it's true I have a hard time being confident in my parenting decisions and this detour I took in to punative parenting only increased that, because I don't trust my instincts anymore, KWIM? It is really important to me to be able to show the people who are going to question me that this "works", and I know it shouldn't be.

Oh, boy! I could've written that! I have no confidence in myself at all. And I feel, also, that in order to "prove" myself, my children must be "perfect". Which, of course, they absolutely are NOT!

You know, as I kept thinking about TTUAC (yes, I read it -- more than once :cry :blush), it slowly sunk in that the ultimate goal of "training" those children was NOT to edify God, to teach them of God, and how to be Godly (which is supposed to be our ultimate goal, according to the scriptures) but for the ultimate convenience of the parent. The child had to be totally controlled, like a robot, for the convenience or "edification" of the parent, so the parent could have a life, so the parent could have an adult conversation without interruption, so the parent "looked" good, etc.

ooops. dd just came down . . . . gotta go!

[jujubnme]

Sara, your last post got me to thinking about judging a discipline philosophy by whether or not it "works." I think that is absolutely appropriate.... what's the point if you're just spinning your wheels, right? The real question is how you define "working." What does "well-behaved" mean? With GBD the goals of discipline go far beyond behavior. We're more concerned about teaching through relationship. So the question isn't just whether our children are "well-behaved," but whether they trust us. Are they learning from our example the foundations of healthy relationship: unconditional love, respect, forgiveness, etc.? Furthermore, we are concerned with individual development, rather than a one-size-fits-all expectation. So what does growth look like? Might it look a little different for each of your children? And does it always *look* like growth? For example, when we take into consideration the psychological principle of equilibrium/disequilibrium, we realize that sometimes growth can actually look like it's going backwards. It's like when your sock drawer gets all disorganized and you dump it on your bed to re-sort. Are you organizing your socks? Yes. Does it *look* like they're being organized? No. But that chaos *is* a step toward a better organization. So I guess what I'm trying to get at with all this, is that we most definitely want to hold ourselves and our discipline accountable, but we need to be clear about what our goals *really* are and think about what are valid ways of measuring success. It occured to me that you might feel a little more confident in your discipline if you get straight in your own mind exaclty what it is you're hoping for GBD to accomplish. Just some musings... hope they're helpful.

[DebraBaker]

It takes everyone some adjustment moving from punitive to grace-based relational discipline.

I have eight kids ranging in age from six to twenty-six.

We were punitive with our older children and made a gradual transition to gbd over the years.

Our oldest were the most rebellious as teenagers. They weren't terribly rebellious but they had their moments.

I can say our current teenagers are *not* rebellious. Our 13yo has add and is challenging to parent but he isn't *rebellious*. The 15 and 17yo are not at all rebellious. We don't provoke them and still have high standards for our family but we don't put a lot of rules on them and don't punish them and don't have troubles with them.

The long term differences are an amazing contrast. I have apologized many times to my older kids, we have a great relationship now and they've turned into wonderful people but my current teens are making that transition without the catharsis of rebellion.

Debra Baker

[Titus2:5Catholic]

Sara, your last post got me to thinking about judging a discipline philosophy by whether or not it "works." I think that is absolutely appropriate.... what's the point if you're just spinning your wheels, right? The real question is how you define "working." What does "well-behaved" mean? With GBD the goals of discipline go far beyond behavior. We're more concerned about teaching through relationship. So the question isn't just whether our children are "well-behaved," but whether they trust us. Are they learning from our example the foundations of healthy relationship: unconditional love, respect, forgiveness, etc.? Furthermore, we are concerned with individual development, rather than a one-size-fits-all expectation. So what does growth look like? Might it look a little different for each of your children?

This is something I've definately thought about before.... thank you!

[TestifyToLove]

I spent 2-3 years listening and following such strict/punative parenting techniques. I knew before going into parenting that I disagreed with them. But, when my HN baby came along, I let friends and family persuade me that my problem was because I was NOT strict enough with her.

I still tremendously guilty for what I put her through. The truth is, that punative parenting never worked for her, it only made her worse. I heard Cynthia Tobias say something once that really hit home and helped me realized WHY punative parenting wasn'g working. She said for the strong-willed child, you cannot MAKE them do anything. The only thing they HAVE to do is die, everything else in life in negotiable. You can pursuade such a child to desire cooperate but sometimes they are still going to choose the consequences, no matter what consequence you lay before them.

Truth is, when the consequence was a spanking and nothing but a spanking, she choose the spanking frequently. And, I hovered on the precipice of physical abuse with her, trying to MAKE her be the child everyone around me expected her to be--rather than cherishing her uniqueness and helping her to grow in wisdom and stature.

I had to do a LOT of make up attachments when I finally walked away from such parenting with her. She was 2 when we brought her into our bed to co-sleep. I had to change my thinking towards HER a great deal. And, sadly I still struggle with my lack of patience and understanding with her specifically. She's not our only spirited child. In fact, 3 of our 4 are high needs. But, because I started the punative parenting with her, I often find my heart slipping back into that negative outlook with her. I don't want that for her. I don't want her spirit broken, I want it molded to be bent towards the Lord of her own desires and not my artificial demands.

[ServingGod]

Ok....aiming for trust and relationship...not necessarily perfect behavior???? Im FREE!!!! That was the exact thing I had to hear!! I just told dh that after I read it. That was what I had to read to get the right perspective. My children wont always be "convenient", and thats ok...while teaching them to learn self control...I am being stretched and learning patience and self control. And thats good. :heart :heart :heart Thank you!