What do these Bible verses mean?

[Sweet Baby 03]

Hello,

I really need some help here, please. What do these Bible verses mean? If spanking your children is not Godly, then why does the Bible talk about it? Am I misentepreting these verses? Is the rod speaking of something else? Can anyone here help me understand what the Bible is speaking about here? I really want to know. Thank you!!

Prov 13:24: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."
Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."
Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."
Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Shoel)."
Prov 29:15: "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."

:nak

[erinee]

Others here can give you lots of links to studies about the rod verses, but in a nutshell, the rod that shephards used in Bible times was used for protecting and redirecting the sheep. A shephard would never have beat his sheep with a rod. Also, if you took the "rod of correction" to mean striking your child with a rod, Proverbs 23:13 would be a lie -- one can indeed kill a child by beating him physically with a rod. We know the Bible doesn't lie, so it must mean something else, right? We do use the "rod of correction" here, but by that we mean that we teach our children, we redirect them when necessary, and we protect them -- we don't use the rod to hit them any more than a shephard would.

I'll let others who have done the studies themselves elaborate further, but good for you for looking for the truth behind these verses!

[Sweet Baby 03]

Oh, thank you! What you wrote makes perfect sense. I've never thought of it like that before, though. Thank you for replying. I hope others will, too...I'd really like to see some links on the subject. I've always been totally confused by this subject-why some Christians interpret it as spanking and others as something else. I'm trying to figure things out...I go to a very pro-spanking church and was brought up with spanking and I'm having a ton of discipline issues with my toddler right now. I wish the Lord had included a step-by-step discipline guide for parents!! :)

:nak

[Katiebug]

Nice to meet you :grin

Just to confuse you a little...some people don't believe that the rod is actually figurative, but instead believe that the "child" referred to in those verses is a young man (16+ years old). I guess there is a special word for grown son in Greek that had been translated simply as child in English. In that case, it means that if your grown-up son was making poor choices, and was in danger of being stoned or going down an otherwise dangerous path, it would be better for you to "beat some sense" into him than to let him be killed. Of course, that was a different time and would not be socially acceptable now.

Anyways, in all my searching, I have found absolutely ZERO evidence that calls us to hit our children, and ESPECIALLY not toddlers and young children. There is no Biblical basis for that.

A few books that might help you are Heartfelt Discipline by Clay Clarkson, and also Biblical Parenting by our very own Crystal Lutton.

[TulipMama]

If spanking your children is not Godly, then why does the Bible talk about it? . . . Is the rod speaking of something else?

What I've found to be common is the assumption that references to the rod = the Christian culture's idea of spanking.

Often because of our Christian cultural upbringing we read these verses and mentally insert "spanking" into them.

If you consciously set aside that assumption, and then study the verses I think you'll find that these verses are not commanding nor recommending that parents hit their children on the bottoms.

Some good resources to help you as you study this more for yourself include:

GCM Articles (http://www.gentlemothering.com/topics/gentlediscipline.php)
Parenting Decisions: Discipline (http://www.parentingdecisions.com/childdiscipline/)
AOLFF Articles (http://aolff.org/articles.htm)
My thoughts on the rod (http://www.tulipgirl.com/mt/archives/000107.html)

[erinee]

I go to a very pro-spanking church and was brought up with spanking

:hug So many of us here are in the same situation. I don't know a single family at my church that I can say for sure doesn't spank, and many I know for sure do. It's hard not to give in sometimes, especially when their kids *do* seem so well-behaved! I know plenty of people who don't spank, but few of them are Christians -- so this site is truly a haven for us.

[SansSouci]

I've always thought of Proverbs as a whole bunch of fortune cookies. They give you cool advice (some times in literal ways, sometimes in figurative ways), but it's simply advice, it's not commandments from God. They are "proverbs", right?

Heartfelt Discipline does a GREAT job addressing each of the verses. That book's comments about those verses REALLY opened up my mind to realize that the "spankers'" interpretations of those verses are not necessarily the ONLY interpretation of those verses!

-Elizabeth

[TulipMama]

I've always thought of Proverbs as a whole bunch of fortune cookies. They give you cool advice (some times in literal ways, sometimes in figurative ways), but it's simply advice, it's not commandments from God. They are "proverbs", right?

Yes, they are Proverbs. And yet, God has given them to us in the Bible and so I believe it has stronger implications than just "advice."

I believe that Proverbs is included in the 2 Tim 3:16 assurance that "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

However, it is a Wisdom book, and the verses have less context around them to help clarify them, than others in the Bible. As John MacArthur writes of Proverbs and Elizabeth points out, "These are wise sayings and truisms -- not necessarily inviolable rules."

And have you noticed, Proverbs appears to use quite a bit of hyperbole.

For example, earlier in the chapter that includes "beat him with the rod and save his soul from death," are the verses:

When you sit to dine with a ruler, note well what is before you, and put a knife to your throat if you are given to gluttony. Proverbs 23:1-2

So when I read these "rod" verses, it's very easy for me to read them for the concept (don't be a glutton, faithfully discipline your child) rather than taking them as specific commands (slit your throat, beat with a rod.)

And in these rod verses, the concepts seem clear when we look at the parallelism (common in Hebrew wisdom literature) in the verses, for example:

"Withhold not correction from the child. . ."

". . .but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

". . .but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."


And these concepts are very much in line with what I think one of the clearest and strongest commands for us, both as people and as parents:

Duet 6:4-7

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.

[Sweet Baby 03]

Again, thank you all for the explanations and links. I must say they make a lot of sense. It's so hard to change the way you think and the way you parent. I have been really struggling lately and I really appreciate you all taking the time to explain these verses and helping me understand that maybe the Lord didn't intend for parents to strike their children. I haven't gotten to read the links yet, but plan to tomorrow. Again, thanks!

[Sweet Baby 03]

I go to a very pro-spanking church and was brought up with spanking

:hug So many of us here are in the same situation. I don't know a single family at my church that I can say for sure doesn't spank, and many I know for sure do. It's hard not to give in sometimes, especially when their kids *do* seem so well-behaved! I know plenty of people who don't spank, but few of them are Christians -- so this site is truly a haven for us.


What you wrote is so true (about their children being so well behaved). Well, I have spanked and my child STILL is no well-behaved!! I've grown to loathe when people say "oh, I'd NEVER let my child get away with doing that!" Um, well, I don't, either. What do you suppose I do??? It drives me crazy! :banghead