What's so bad about the tomato staking approach?

[haak]

OK I know this is probably not good but I have been reading the whole tomato staking thing after someone reccomended it. It actually sounds good in some ways to me because supposibly you only have to spank for a day or two and then your kids totally obey you. I know there is a reason it doesn't sit right with me but I am quite tempted. My DD is so two years old!! Sometimes it just gets frustrating and this sounds so easy. But then I was reading someone's post - 'new and frustrated" and it got me thinking. I don't want to be adversial with my kids and start not to feel bonded with them. Is this what would happen? Just searching- not promoting- also would love to hear people's experience with it.

[ArmsOfLove]

Well, no amount of spanking is going to stop your 2yo from being 2. And that means spanking for 2 or 3 days isn't going to stop them from being 2. Yes, it will create an adversarial dynamic in your home. It is an adversarial approach to parenting. It's icky to keep a child with you so you can "ambush" them as soon as they do something you disapprove of. Ultimately it comes out of a totally adversarial paradigm. If you'd like to know how we'd encourage a mom to respond out of a GBD paradigm then you could try posting some specific situations in our Gentle Discipline forum :)

[MarynMunchkins]

We had a whole long discussion in IF about this. :)

IIRC, the general agreement was that tomato staking, if done to keep your child close to you and teach them what to do was a good thing. :tu You can be proactive in your disicpline, and look for ways to encourage and support your child. It does create a bond with you and your child because they are constantly close to you.

If it's done to keep your child close to you so you can punish them the moment they disobey, it's just a control freak issue. ;) It's about not having to move or be inconvenienced by the behavior of your child. And, from what I've heard, there aren't too many punitive parents who encourage much play while their child is with them. They just expect them to act like a mini-adult. :td

And anyone who tells you that you only have to spank for a couple days is either deluded or abusive. Kids are designed to learn through repetative behavior, even if it has negative impact on them. That's why they keep getting up and trying to walk after they fall on their butts 1500 times. ;) Even spanking has to be done repeatedly. The only other option is to hit so hard or so often that your child is literally afraid to repeat the behavior because you will hurt them. :(

hth. :)

[haak]

That makes a lot of sense. What was I thinking :shrug I think it was just my laziness coming out- :O

[Irene]

its okay ;) I think sometimes we all wish there was just a magic pill ;)

[Joanne]

It's so tempting to search for the perfect discipline mix that prevents all issues.

But look at it this way. If spanking worked as spanking advocates want us to believe, we wouldn't need all the books, sites, ideas and *words* about it. If spanking worked to prevent kids from being impulsive, noisy, rude, childish, hungry, angry, fussy, needy, picky........... we would never have a need to have a tomato staking thread.

That said, I agree that tomato staking to buddy up with a child and connect and teach is good. I'd even support TS to have a child earn the right to separate.

And I agree that spanking for first time obedience can "work". But it's the immediacy and the firm boundaries. It's not the *spanking*, it's the principle that works.

Instead, practice Get Off Your Bottom parenting for a while to train or retrain your children that you mean what you say. Your responsibility is to chose carefully what you require.

http://joanneaz_2.tripod.com/positivedisciplineresourcecenter/id21.html

[TulipMama]

And I know many mamas who spank the "right" way and are "consistent" and are still really struggling. Theer kids *still* need spankings. I know some mamas who are having to be super-diligent with tomato staking after years. Yet, they believe it will "work" so they keep up with spanking and swatting and ambusing for any infraction of First Time Obedience.

Now, those who teach these ideas say that obviously these mothers who are struggling are doing something wrong. (The "method" isn't wrong--the mothers are. *eyeball roll*) The teachers say that a mother should only need to spank a handful of times, and then the children will almost always be a perfect little angel. That may be true for some children and some personalities--but it isn't true for many, many children and mothers. Even, like I said, mothers who are doing it "right" and "consistently."

I believe mothers who adopt this sort of method of spanking/training/punishment mean well. And they DO love their children. But while their hearts are loving and they may be "tying heartstrings" at times, their training actions are communicating "When you are not perfect, then I will cause you pain. You are only lovable and acceptable when you are perfect."

And THAT is something that really grieves me. When our actions are telling our children that they are only loved and accepted when their actions measure up, we are failing to really communicate God's unconditional love to them. We are failing to show them that, yes, they are imperfect. They are sinners. They are in need of Jesus.

While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. I want my parenting to help my children recognize that yes, they are sinners. And yet--even so--God loves them and has sent Christ for them. That they don't have to act perfectly and be "obedient" to merit salvation. Even--they can NOT merit God's salvation with their First Time Obedience.


So, in a nutshell, I have problems with this idea of Christian parenting because I think it doesn't "work" the way it's taught for many parents and children. It sends mixed messages about love and acceptance. And I believe it inhibits communicating the Gospel in our daily lives to our children.

[haak]

Wow Tulipmama-
That was really good and great for me to think about. Thanks so much- so good for me to hear!!

[ShowersofBlessings]

I wanted to add that although they might tell you that tomato staking and spanking will "work" after only a day or two, DO NOT BELIEVE IT! I have seen women who are always consistent that still need to spank. Spanking won't make your kids perfect, so you will have to keep spanking. :( If you do happen to have an easy-going child who does learn to comply/obey within 2 days, then you probably could have used other methods (GBD for example) just as well.

[Titus2:5Catholic]

Well, I'm a tomato staking failure, and here's why:
1. It is impossible! Do you take the kid with you to go to the bathroom? What does he do while you're in the shower? I know there are women who say they do it, but I have never been able to make it work. And if they can only obey when they are literally right next to you, then it obviously isn't working very well. And there are activities that are quite simply much easier without kids literally right next to me, like mopping.
2. I'd always run across this dilimma. I'm nursing the baby and the toddler gets into trouble. If I do the "tomato-staking" thing, I have to interrupt the nursing session, put down a baby who immediately begins screaming, and begin a spanking session with the toddler. I'm supposed to spank until I win, so we could be at this for a while (I'm ashamed to admit of a few one hour sessions). Meanwhile the poor baby, who has no clue what is going on, is screaming, so I"m trying to find a way to nurse and spank...I get frustrated and my spankings get harder, and by the end of it, both the child and I are exhuasted, and you are sitting (or laying down, depending on how long it took) there praying that God will have mercy on you because if another child gets in trouble you're going to have to do the whole thing all over again. Then if you don't, you're the failure, because you weren't consistant, and that one hour session was just worthless.
3. The kids don't get to play. The idea is you're supposed to include them in your activities, which I think is actually a very AP thing. But what about when I need to scrub the toilets, or something? They just get to sit there and stare at you. Not very fun.

My failure to tomato stake is something I am just beginning to realize might not be totally a bad thing- I've felt guilty for so long over it.
Ironically, today was the first day I committed to going through the day without spanking the kids. I probably tomato-staked more today then I ever did, because the burden of making them behave perfectly was off me, so I wanted to be around them.

[LAS]

you only have to spank for a day or two and then your kids totally obey you

Like showers said- DON'T BELIEVE IT!!! It took me a while to get over the guilt and idea that I must be a failure because these methods didn't work like that for me and my DD. I still have to watch my thinking.

I don't think God quite meant for this parenting thing to be as "easy" as that. I think this "promise" lures desperate and well-meaning parents in. I think it also promotes a selfish view of parenting. One where the parent doesn't have to be too inconvenienced.

Here's why it really didn't "work" for us:
1)I'm not perfect and couldn't be 100% consistent.
2)My DD had undiagnosed health problems I wasn't aware of and was in constant physical pain.
3)My DD is very opinionated and strong-willed. (kinda like her momma!)
4)Tomato-staking, spanking into submission...they just didn't make her understand the goal of it or take personal responsibility for her behavior and choices. They only made her angry and resentful over what *I* was inflicting on her.
5)It led to me getting frustrated and angry.

It's tempting to think that there is some "magic formula" that will transform our children into obedient little things. But, parenting takes hard work, sacrifice, understanding, compassion, creativity, prayer.... the list goes on and on. Oh yeah- and gentleness and grace!

[greenemama]

when i read about it the first thing i think is, "what happens when mama's not there?"

and i think it's kind of creepy to be watching your kids like that, waiting for them to look sideways at you and then walloping them. :(

there are times in every day here, tho, that i know that if i let henry (3) out of my sight that he'll be into trouble in no time at all. so in order to prevent frustration and anger on my part, and to keep him from falling, i keep him right by my side, doing what i'm doing so that another scenario isn't even possible. and i think that this is *really* what tomato staking is -- standing by the growing plant, helping him grow strong and straight, keeping him from wandering somewhere where fruit won't be produced or at the least, won't be healthy.

if i were to beat my tomato plants when the vines wandered off of the stake, well, they'd die! and even if i did it for two or three days, the thing would still wander at times. the analogy is off, whoever came up with the term to fit the adversarial way they're doing things is not thinking logically. :shifty

[TulipMama]

the burden of making them behave perfectly was off me, so I wanted to be around them.


*hug* That's so wonderful.

Praying for you today. Leaving behind punitive thinking, for me, has been a rough road with really good days and also rough days. Motherhood is like that, isn't it? Praying for much peace and wisdom and joy for you.

[made4more]

I am new here, and My experience is.. Yes, you do get results, but my children started thinking that I hated them. It took FAR LONGER than the initial 2 days to get them to react, and there were times and situations where I could not 'win the battle for the life of me.' I did get some resulsts, like I said, but wasn't happy w/ myself in the end. Not to mention the spanking in p ublic (not cool) and the comments my innocent 3 yr. old would make. she woudl say "you will give me a spanken w/ the ____" and OMGOSH how do you tell her not to say taht? she actually started thinking that the bruises on her legs were from SPANKENS! :td I wasn't overly spanked as a child, but it's really rally really angry to not spank out of anger.

Oh, and when I asked what i should do about my 3 yr. old telling Grandpa that the bruises were from spanking???? SPANK HER FOR LYING. She is 3, and when I asked her wehre she got thespankens, she HONESTLY THOUGHT that the bruises were from me.

I just didn't like it. I also have an 18m. old, and they just acted afraid. No matter how calm I would be.

[haak]

Thank you everyone so much for sharing-especially people who shared from their own painful experiences. :hug2 This board is so great because we can learn from others and not have to make the same mistakes with our own children.

[TulipMama]

Bumping, since it is related to another current discussion. *grin*

[klpmommy]

I believe mothers who adopt this sort of method of spanking/training/punishment mean well. And they DO love their children. But while their hearts are loving and they may be "tying heartstrings" at times, their training actions are communicating "When you are not perfect, then I will cause you pain. You are only lovable and acceptable when you are perfect."

Thanks TulipMama- I needed to hear that today after a couple of rough days with my preschoolers.

[daffodil]

I just love you guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am so sick of people thinking that ALL children are to be a ONE way! I love my children just the way they are. I see innocence behind their passionate outbursts. If I am always trying to make them behave a cretain "ideal" way then I will never know them so personally and will never have time to see the person that dwells in the depths of those huge dark eyes!
You mamas are an encouragement to me!