Dobson question

[herbalwriter]

Anyone read Bringin Up Boys by Dobson? If so, any opinions?

[sadie]

I read it over a year ago. I wasn't crazy about it. Although some have said it is decent, and has some good points, I feel that the good in any Dobson book is far outweighed by the bad, and the good that *is* in it can be found in better books, without any of the bad stuff. :shrug

And typical Dobson, it promotes a very adversarial relationship.

[herbalwriter]

Good points...it was given to me as a gift and I read it, but wasn't sure what I thought. I was interested in some other feedback. He didn't really address punishment or babies in this book; it was more like societal research, like the benefits of homeschooling and the origins of homosexuality and things. I am not familiar with his other stuff. Just trying to get a feel for what others think on this one... ;) thanks for replying!

[Punkie]

I was given this book, but I haven't read it.

[Mother of Sons]

I have it. I got to the part about mothers being the cause of homosexuality and I stopped reading it. I did hear him a few weeks ago on the radio talking about the book and homosexuality again. Basically he said that single mothers and those with husbands who are distant to the kids better watch out because their kids are going to be gay. He said by 18 months boys need to be completely detached from their mothers and attach to the fathers. When that doesn't happen, homosexuality is the result.

[cklewis]

I hated it. It was my first exposure to Dobson post-DS's birth, and I threw it across the room. Yes, yes. . . . he may have some good points. But the Freudian stuff was too much. He just assumes it's so. Add to that fact that Dobson takes every opportunity to push his political agenda (even when it doesn't fit in the overal purpose of the chapter), and it was a waste of my time.

I thought I agreed with a lot of what I read, but it kicked me closer to finding GBD. The book unsettled me, I guess, and sent me to my knees asking for a better way. So THAT was good about it. :grin

C

[zak]

I have it (two copies actually - someone sent me a 2nd after Jack was born). I read it before I was even pregnant. I liked it. I like how he really focused on protecting your son from predators. I am ultra aware of this (I was before I read the book)... but protecting him is my job and I won't let anything get in the way of that job.

I'm not a Dobson-hater... I like FOF for the most part - I don't agree w/ the punitive/spanking stuff - but their ministry does a lot of good for different people in different situations.

I started to re-read it when I found out we were having a boy... but I didn't finish it a 2nd time. I don't remember a lot of it though, just the protection part.

[snlmama]

I think it's a great book for Dobson fans to read b/c it actually talks alot about the importance have having a bond w/ your children and talks about the importance of having a parent at home and tells a story of how he took his dd out of daycare when she had problems adjusting and found a way for his wife to SAH. :) That's what stuck w/ me b/c I have read his other books and felt this was nothing like it. I will have to admit I didn't actually read the homosexuality chapter. :blush I guess I wasn't that impressed since I only read part of it, just surprised it wasn't *as* horrible as his other stuff.
That said I have a tendency not to like any of the "raising boys" type of book. :shrug

[erinee]

single mothers and those with husbands who are distant to the kids better watch out because their kids are going to be gay.

That's strange, because I have 1 gay brother and 3 straight brothers. All raised in pretty much the same way (especially the 3 older ones, and it's one of them who is gay). Why aren't they all gay or all straight? I don't think of any of them as being terribly attached to mom (she was definitely not AP, just a typical 60s mainstream mom), and my dad was as involved in all of our lives as dads typically were at that time.

He would think Zach doesn't stand a chance! He is very attached to both dh & me, and says he looks forward to HSing next year so he can spend more time with me!

[sadie]

single mothers and those with husbands who are distant to the kids better watch out because their kids are going to be gay.

Sigh. :( Hearing this kind of stuff makes me so sad. :(

I honestly don't believe there is some kind of 'formula' for raising straight kids verses gay ones. These sort of statements just cause a lot of anxiety and judgementalism. :td

[ArmsOfLove]

Actually, mainstream psychological study has concluded that the absence of a strong male figure in the life of a boy is a factor in the lives of many gay men. A particularly telling *formula* is a passive father and an overbearing mother. That doesn't *guarantee* someone will be gay--there are predispositions, personality, life experience, and other factors as well. But these are things that have been documented as being part of the childhood experience of many gay men.

[sadie]

But to make a statement like "single mother=gay son" is totally out of line. :(

[cklewis]

I thought I remember reading (and I could go get it) that he concluded an unresponsive *father* was the cause of homosexuality. Maybe I was reading in, but I got the impression that he blamed dad more than mom.

:shrug

C

[ArmsOfLove]

I haven't read the book yet (will be soon ;) ) but dh heard him in an interview where he was saying if he could go back and do it all over again he'd have spent less time telling women how to be mothers and more time telling men how to be fathers.

[herbalwriter]

As a single mom, the homosexuality bit was what made me fearful. My (supposedly Christian) husband just did a crazy about-face and flew the coop and filed for divorce when ds was just a few months old - goes to another church with another girl now, how lovely - and he sees ds twice a week. I was desperately hoping for something encouraging from Dobson's book for being a single mom, but I didn't find much. Overall, though, I liked the book and agreed with some things. I have not read anything else by Dobson.

It's hard enough to be a single AP mom without any more scary statistics thrown at me!

[ArmsOfLove]

Elizabeth :hugheart I think it would be helpful if you found some good male influences at church for ds (I'm sure you're already aware of this! but since you said you'd wanted some encouragement as a single mom). Also, AP is for fostering a healthy attachment. I think that the "single mom" issue is a problem *if* the mom expects the ds to emotionally take the place of her absent dh *or* if she hates men and takes it out on her ds :( If you're posting here I'm guessing these aren't problems in your home :amen

[joandsarah77]

I've never read the book, but his saying 18 months does surprise me. I read, :think can't remeber the name :shrug a book about normal and homosexual development and agreed with it. Basicly this book said a boy develops his sexual identity between 2-6 and that at 0-4 it's totaly normal for a boy to be more attached to his mother. It's from a close attachment that a boy of 2 or 3 might even say he wants to 'marry mummy' Then from about 4-6 a boy is suposed to start bonding closer with his father and give up (even if it was a subconsous) thoughts of marrying mummy which gets replaced by 'someone like mummy' A boy this age should strongly identify and enjoy being male. Talking about 'girls germs' is actualy a good sign that normal development is taking place lol. If at this age the relationship with dad is bad a boy may then cling closer to his mother and female things and start rejecting things 'male'.

[sadie]

(((((((((((((Elizabeth))))))))))))))))

That's exactly why I think this sort of stuff is so harmful. If it helps, I don't believe you can "turn" a child gay any more than you can "gay-proof" them. :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes

[herbalwriter]

by the way...what's FOF?

[cklewis]

by the way...what's FOF?


Focus on the Family? :shrug

C

[FlyingBlueKiwi]

I don't believe you can "turn" a child gay any more than you can "gay-proof" them. :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes


Sadie, it sounds like you believe that people are "born gay'? If so, how do you handle the verses that indicate that homosexual behavior is a sin? I mean, sins are generally things people have some (if only a little ;)) control over . . .

[sadie]

I have spoken previously on this subject on the old board in Intense Fellowship. I do not believe homosexuality is a sin. I believe people are born gay. I interpret the verses in the OT differently. I am hesitant to get into this too much on a public forum, but these are basically my beliefs. :) I agree to disagree with many of my sisters on GCM, and I respect those who believe it is a sin. :)

ETA, however, my statement you quoted above is more towards people who believe there is a specific formula regarding 'gayness.' I am rolling my eyes at people who believe they can pinpoint exactly what would make someone gay and counter it. Even if people believe homosexuality is not something one is born with, like Crystal said, there are so many factors that go into it that are not 'measurable.' There is no scientific guarantee against homosexuality. :shrug

[anniegirl]

FWIW, I completely agree with Sadie. I think it's a terrible burden the church has placed on good parents for making them feel that they somehow turned their children gay and that their gay children are somehow unacceptable. :( A family that I admire very much was completely devistated when their son came out, they are wonderful, wonderful parents and it made me sad to see them struggle with the pressure from the church, their shame and embarassment. I have gay male friends who have wonderful relationships with their fathers. It's a stereotype that all gay men were either missing a father, had a bad father, a mother who coddled etc, etc.

[Tulip_Plus_3]

Some parts I liked, others I didn't. Pretty much what Life is all about, right? I liked the part emphasizing the importance of fathers playing an active role in their son's lives. Didn't like the part stating that boys needed to detach from their mothers at 18 months (especially since that hasn't happened here). Liked the part emphasizing how important it is to build self-esteem and protect young boys from being bullied. Didn't like all the bashing of women's rights (as much as I agree with some of his points, I felt he went on for far too long about feminism in a book about raising boys - yawn). Wasn't sure what to make of the chapter on homosexuality, especially since I've known so many gay people in my life and it seems that all but one were truly born that way; however, I agree that children must be protected at all costs against child predators. I agreed with many of his points regarding how men are portrayed in our society, but felt he went on for too long about them.

Overall I didn't think it was a BAD book, but I definitely did not "get" why so many people raved about it.

[Tulip_Plus_3]

Here is an example of the info contained in the Bringing up Boys book:

http://www.focusonyourchild.com/relation/art1/A0000308.html

I think that most of the info presented here is sage. My son is extremely delayed in his speech (but he's getting there), and was also a very late walker. Because of this at the tender age of 2 he was already being targeted by more aggressive children in Sunday School. Reading the info at the above URL as well as the BUB book put into perspective why I needed to step in and make sure my precious son was protected at church. I have since spoken with the SS director and steps have been taken to make positive changes.

[erinee]

I think it's a terrible burden the church has placed on good parents for making them feel that they somehow turned their children gay and that their gay children are somehow unacceptable. A family that I admire very much was completely devistated when their son came out, they are wonderful, wonderful parents and it made me sad to see them struggle with the pressure from the church, their shame and embarassment.

ITA. My family went all through that. I think my parents have come to terms with it, and they have *always* accepted my brother. They let him know how they felt about it, and then they let it go. But I know there are people in their church who have felt it's wrong for them to even let him in the house. :cry

I don't think my parents did a thing to "make" my brother gay. I don't know if he was born that way, or if there were other experiences in his life that put him on that path, but it was not my parents' fault.

[shilohmm]

Actually, mainstream psychological study has concluded that the absence of a strong male figure in the life of a boy is a factor in the lives of many gay men. A particularly telling *formula* is a passive father and an overbearing mother.

I remember reading a psychologist's discussion on that, where he would try to get the fathers of some of his gay clients to talk to their sons, and it was heartbreaking. What he was seeing wasn't fathers who were passive in the marriage as a whole, but passive toward that child. One guy he was dealing with was close to his other three sons, but not to the homosexual son. The psychologist believed that the fathers labeled their homosexual sons as "different" from the first - different in terms of personality - and the father "felt rejected" because the son was so different from him and then sort of cut the son out in order to protect himself emotionally. I knew exactly what he was talking about because my father and I had much the same relationship - my dad's not at all a passive father, but our personalities are almost exactly opposite, and when I was a kid he and I had a very negative relationship. No bonding going on there! ;)

My guess is that there is no one pattern for "creating" homosexuality, but the passive father thing does seem fairly common.

I do not understand many Christians' attitude toward homosexuals. Even though I agree with them that homosexuality is a sin, I see no Biblical indication that homosexuals are some sort of peculiar creatures who should be more shunned than other sinners. When you look at lists like 1 Cor. 6:9-10, then what justification is there for treating homosexuals any differently than drunkards and fornicators and those who are covetous? Heaven knows all those guys are welcome in the same churches that shun gays. :rolleyes What business do we have shunning gays but welcoming couples who're living together without being married? Do the people who shame parents whose kids turn out gay heap equal shame on parents whose kids commit adultery, fornicate, or steal?

I'm not arguing we should shun anyone. It's the hypocrisy that gets me. :td

Sheryl