Spinoff - well-behaved children

[snlmama]

I'm curious about something - why is it if a child is really well-behaved somewhere, like sitting still and quiet in church, do people often assume they "must" do Ezzo or Pearl or whatever? :think I'm honestly curious about this. I was thinking about this while reading another thread, but I've seen it come up many times on several forums and I don't want this question to get lost in that thread or get that thread off on a tangent.

The following is just and example of what I see irl w/ Ezzo - while his program promises a certain outcome it doesn't always get it. :/

We frequently get compliments on how my ds behaves in church. :shifty Now, if you are the one sitting w/ him he's really not *that* great. :lol We're just very proactive and stop misbehavior before it gets started. I have to go over how to act in church beforehand, remind him at each hymn to stand and sing w/ me, point out the words to the hymns, help him w/ his worksheets, remind him several times to talk more softly, lean over and explain things I think he may not understand.... Often dh will draw pictures while ds watches. Sometimes I let him play w/ my Palm Pilot or suck on mints (he doesn't get much candy so it's a big treat just for church). We "practice" at home how to behave in church. We have never spanked him or threatened him for misbehaving. If he is having a lot of trouble we will take him outside for awhile. Pretty much dh and I take turns and every other week one of us pretty much spends the service "helping" ds behave while the other listens to the sermon - that way neither of us gets overly frustrated about missing the sermon. Sometimes we both get to pay attention to most of it, some weeks he's hyped up and keeping him occupied is a fulltime job. :shifty We sit right behind a friend's family w/ a child who is always very still and quiet - he's playing w/ his gameboy the whole service. :rolleyes They're just a really laid back family. Def. not Ezzo or even Dobson.

There is only one couple in our church who follows the Ezzo program - very into it and have tried unsuccessfully to get the classes taught at our church. Sooo, their child should be a model of perfection, right? Nope. He's running up and down and climbing on the pews. They take him out of the service a few times each week, after letting him "run wild" for a few min. while they hiss threats at him. (and I'm pretty sure it's not just to let him cool down :( ) <and I want to note here that this child *does* have other issues that are NOT related to the Ezzo program, so I don't really think his behavior is "caused" by the program, just noting that he is "Ezzoed" and not too well-behaved ;)>

So, if many of the posters on GCM came to *my* church, they'd think the Ezzo family was AP/ GBD and my family and my friend's family (w/the Gameboy) were Ezzo families. :/ :shrug :eek I keep pondering this and wondering *why* this is the way things are often viewed on this board. Does a well-behaved child automatically mean an Ezzo family to some? And why do "we" think this?

Maybe this belongs elsewhere, but I was in this forum so I'm putting it here for now.

[sadie]

The most well behaved children and teenagers I have ever met were the results of positive discipline. :)

The most aggressive and badly behaved children I ever met were the ones who were spanked frequently. They somewhat behaved when any kind of authority was around, but in the absence of authority, they were the most out of control and angry children. As teenagers, the most destructive and dysfunctional ones were the ones who were spanked frequently. The majority of these kids were from Dobson homes.

I have met some Ezzo kids, and I don't quite know how to describe it. It's beyond "well behaved." They are creepy. It was always clear to me that they were not well behaved b/c they were raised well, but b/c they were scared out of their minds. They seemed robotic to me.

If I see wel behaved children who do not have this 'creepy' quality, I actually always assume they must be positively disciplined. When I see poorly behaved children, I always assume they are spanked, or otherwise punitvely raised.

I don't know if this is what you are looking for, but this is my experience. :shrug

[CelticJourney]

So, if many of the posters on GCM came to *my* church, they'd think the Ezzo family was AP/ GBD and my family and my friend's family (w/the Gameboy) were Ezzo families

Not necessarily. If I saw a child happily interacting with a parent (ie, not afraid) but also 'behaving' I would assume that there was a good relationship between them. I would not assume Ezzo and would be hopeful that they were AP/GBD just to have another real-life family that parents the way we do.

[ArmsOfLove]

So, if many of the posters on GCM came to *my* church, they'd think the Ezzo family was AP/ GBD and my family and my friend's family (w/the Gameboy) were Ezzo families. I keep pondering this and wondering *why* this is the way things are often viewed on this board. Does a well-behaved child automatically mean an Ezzo family to some? And why do "we" think this? I know *I* don't think this so I'm not sure where you're reading it. Is it maybe something you're assuming based on what you're reading but might not be the intent of the poster? :shrug Just wondering.

I have incredibly well behaved children when we're out in public. Other than when my children get gluten (which, thank God!, happens very infrequently) my children are incredibly well behaved at home. Most of the children at our congregation are parented gently and they are almost all wonderfully behaved (and when they aren't I don't think it's necessarily a parenting/discipline issue).

I guess my question is whether or not you've ever been around Ezzo families other than the one in your church? I mean hardcore Ezzoites? Generalizing here, based on what I've witnessed, but I was also going to use the word "robotic". It's like a deadness behind the eyes and a fear of acting. Toddlers who sit with their hands folded in their laps staring blankly ahead of them for HOURS, babies that won't roll off their blankets, older children who seem perfectly behaved until the second their parents are out of sight :shifty I would not describe them as "well behaved" at all.

[Soliloquy]

On the other thread you're referring too, I had a similar thought--what does "well-behaved" mean? To me, it means that the children (and adults) are sensitive of the needs of others, are compassionate and loving, and strong enough to stand up for what's right and God-pleasing. I don't expect children to sit perfectly still and silently during a sermon that they can't understand.

I think what people mean when they write "well-behaved" in terms of Ezzo--they mean that the natural wiggliness of children is missing--that they children appear to be "holding it in with all of their might" to avoid punishment. Some children are naturally calm and quiet in church--they're sleepy or they can drift away into their own thoughts during the sermon (that's what I did, but I still hated sitting there). But what you described with your DD is what I would call parents helping their child make the most of a difficult situation. It's very difficult for children to sit still and quiet for a long time.

[snlmama]

guess my question is whether or not you've ever been around Ezzo families other than the one in your church? I mean hardcore Ezzoites? Generalizing here, based on what I've witnessed, but I was also going to use the word "robotic". It's like a deadness behind the eyes and a fear of acting. Toddlers who sit with their hands folded in their laps staring blankly ahead of them for HOURS, babies that won't roll off their blankets, older children who seem perfectly behaved until the second their parents are out of sight I would not describe them as "well behaved" at all.

Yes, and this is part of why I"m asking the question. I used the example from church b/c it's the one that came to mind from the other thread. But, I do know several "hard-core" Ezzo people. (actually I think you could call this couple hard-core, but their ds has some developmental issues but they are still following Ezzo's plan. :sad2) And, that's why I'm so puzzled when I read threads like a recent one where the comment is basically "this child is too well-behaved" or "too good." They are "good" only when they think they may be spanked. If that. At a certain age, IME, the Ezzoed kids seem to just go crazy. :crazy and plain flat no longer care if they are spanked 10 times a day or not. :sad2 (or maybe it's the waiting til they get home that happens as they get older and they decide that they're getting spanked anyway so may as well go all out?)

OK. lmanske posted while I was typing this and THANK YOU. At least someone sees what I'm asking about. I'd pull quotes from other threads, but I think that's against the rules. Maybe I should just look those up and ask there. Just thougth it'd be an interesting discussion, but I guess I'm the only one interested in "discussing" it.

[ArmsOfLove]

I think it's an interesting discussion and I'd love to hear if people are thinking that--my experience is more in line with yours. I guess because of that when I hear people say things like "too well behaved" I don't think "too calm and mature and well parented" but I hear "robotic" or "Stepford child". But maybe I'm reading my own ideas into the words and they do mean what you're hearing :) When I worked the nursery with the Kindergartners I knew exactly who was Ezzoing *before* I knew they were Ezzoing. Their children were the worst behaved kids in the class. Well, they were really well behaved until the parent walked out the door and then they did a Jekyll and Hyde :eek

[milkmommy]

For me it kinda depends on version of "behaving" I've seen some families whos kids all under 5 sit 100% perfectly still seemingly paying attention never turning etc its creepy and the parents threaten them upon entering where ever and always have this "I'm the boss" look about them. This isn't natural. I consider my DD to be well behaved but she scoots around on the bench between DH and I at church she turns ands hugs me or points and "asks" In restraunts she sits nicely but giggles or plays with some toy ans if we drag it out too long she gets restless.. :shrug
Another is the Ezzoed or pearled children seem to act well when with their parents but go wild when seperated.

Deanna

[chelsea]

I'm really glad you brought this up because I noticed the same thing in certain posts/threads. I don't think some people's words are meant as they sound though. I really think that when people talk about "too-well-behaved" they are referring to the creepy stillness of young children that are "whipped into line" by their hard-core punitive parents. At first when I read some threads I was wondering exactly the same thing as you because I heard the term "too well-behaved" or others like it more often than I ever had in my life. ;) (I used to think it was a quality to be sought after!) :eek Just wanted to let you know that I understand what you are talking about...and I think that it isn't meant as it sounds but is rather an attempt to describe the way some children act as robots and not "regular" children. :shrug I guess it is a good reminder though that we can't always judge a book by it's cover...or a parent's discipline methods by their child's behavior!

[Benjaminswife]

The kids I know that don't behave have all been spanked!!!

[4blessings]

People are always assuming that we spank our children. I know I posted about this on the old board, but my children's eye Dr. is a HUGE Pearl follower. The first time we saw him he told me how "impressed" he was with my children's behavior and how "well trained" children are such a blessing, blah, blah, blah. He asked, "What parenting philosophy do you follow?" He was stunned, really stunned, to find out that we don't spank. In fact, I'm not entirely sure he really believed me that we don't spank. He said, "I've never seen well-behaved children who weren't spanked." I said, "Well, you know, choosing not to spank isn't the same as choosing not to discipline."

I don't assume well-behaved children are spanked, but I think most folks do assume that.

Oh, and I don't assume poorly behaved children are spanked, either. I assume that poorly behaved children are the product of poor parenting, be it overly punitve or overly permissive. I think I can pick out those robotic children from Pearl/Woodshed/Ezzo type homes

[DebraBaker]

I find the super "well-behaved" children who sit for hours at a time frightening.

I think well-behaved is more children who care about other people and are free to be themselves but the self is a pleasent self. I enjoy children who can carry on a conversation with me and children who are kind to others.

I've noticed the kids who are treated the most strictly are te hardest to teach in Children's Ministry.

Odd.

DB

[Leslie]

People comment frequently that my sons are well-behaved, nobody's ever asked if we Ezzo'ed or used Pearl. They will sit quietly, but I think that has more to do with their temperament than anything else.I suspect that if we spanked compliance into them, they'd still give the appearance of being behaved.

[purplerose]

I too agree that the most well-behaved teenagers/young adults are the ones who come from AP/PP/GBD upbringings. Yes, it's harder when they are toddlers and it's easy for people to say "just spank them when they act up" Well, to me it just does no good and causes fear and they they start sneaking around their parents. :td :td I want my kids to come to me with any problem they have and not feel fear for whatever it is! Slowly though, I am getting more compliments on the behaviour of my children (they are 3 and almost 2), and while sometimes I think they are out of control, others are like WOW! I can't believe you don't have to yell at them!!!! It just takes time and practice! KEEP DOING GBD~~~~~~~~~ It does work!!!!!! :tu :tu

[DogwoodMama]

It's very interesting b/c I think many folks do desire "robotic" or "super well-behaved" kids... I have been contacted by someone who lurks at this website but is not pro-GBD who claims she will never do GBD (doesn't have kids) precisely b/c she WANTS "very well-behaved" children and believes that when *we* see such children in public that we are "jealous" of them... (talk about not assigning positive intent there!)

TBH, I really don't think about parenting styles when I see kids in public... I just sort of take what I see, and if I interact with the child just try to have a positive interaction with them to help them feel comfortable in my presence, and assign positive intent if it's necessary (they are being too loud or boisterous- they might not *realize* they need to tone it down; they don't respond to me or don't seem friendly- they may be uncomfortable around unfamiliar folks, are feeling, bad, etc.) I really really don't think *I* could just casually interact with a child and discern how they are parented, whether they are well-behaved or not... b/c you have to take the kid's innate personality into account... so I really try to refrain from jumping to conclusions! :)

I really don't know anyone from AP/GBD backgrounds... I know families who probably spanked occassionally but their overall parenting style was/is very "involved" and they are great, loving, connected families with awesome kids... :)

[Irene]

It's very interesting b/c I think many folks do desire "robotic" or "super well-behaved" kids... I have been contacted by someone who lurks at this website but is not pro-GBD who claims she will never do GBD (doesn't have kids) precisely b/c she WANTS "very well-behaved" children and believes that when *we* see such children in public that we are "jealous" of them... (talk about not assigning positive intent there!)


I agree. and to be perfectly honest, I wanted those children too :shifty which was what attracted me to Ezzo in the first place :cry I thought I would have such perfect little children who sat when you said sit and be quiet when you say be quiet etc etc. there is no room for childishness, or for getting off your rear and making it happen.

I think that I still deal with a lot of these feelings myself and knowing what is just being a child, what is okay and not okay. because thats what i see around me, is stepford type kids ya know?

I think I struggle sometimes with being judgemental towards others parenting :blush you asked- Im being honest ;) but when you describe you and your child in the church, I think, wow, that sounds lovely :) but when I see children like everyone else says sitting stock still with eyes glazed over I dont think those parents are doing a lovely job with their kids, ya know?

I also so see some mellow kids, and thats what they are, and you can tell, they are just mellow kids, enjoying being with their parents in church :) course, Im jealous :lol j/k

[jujubnme]

I personally don't feel like I could make a judgment on how a child is disciplined without a good deal of observation and interaction with the children and their family. (Unless of course, I see the parents in action.) There are so many things that can color how a child behaves in a certain situation. A child who looks "robotic" may be extremely shy, on the verge of getting sick (or just recovering), dealing with allergies, didn't get enough sleep, just got back from a big vacation, dealing with some kind of loss.... Only by actually getting to know the child and their family situation can you know for sure. My own ds is naturally easy-going and friendly, although not so great at sitting still in church. :P I hope that how dh and I parent brings out the best in his God-given personality, but I don't think I could ever say he's that way simply because of our parenting. I get uncomfortable with attributing certain isolated behaviors or personality traits with whether or not a child was AP'ed and GD'ed or not. Kids are just so different to start with. :shrug

[Irene]

you're right... I guess i was thinking more about people I know who do ezzo or pearl in our church, and maybe thats why i feel "judgemental" toward them, because i have been in their homes and they in mine and have seen them in action. ya know? im big on not judging strangers though- like in Mary's instance :) because i get looks from strangers all the time and they have no idea what i am going thru at this moment.

[callasandra]

When I was raising my children the one thing I noticed was that the children from what I used to call the super pious perfect Christian homes were always the nastiest to other children. They were pleasant with the adults and to other children when adults were around, but bullied and picked on others when no adults were present. There was alot of spanking in these homes and I don't recall there being much talk as to why they needed to be kind to others, just spankings if they misbehaved.

I remember one time two of the neighborhood children who were from Christain homes were discussing with my daughter another little girl who came from a troubled home and had some major problems. I asked them one question "What do you think this child really needs"? Their response was "a spanking" which was not the answer I was looking for. My daughter thought a few seconds and said "she needs Jesus" which is the answer I was looking for and gave me the opportunity to talk to them as to why she acted the way she did.

The funny thing is now that they are all grown up, those children have had the same problems as the families I knew who were very permissive with their children. There is only one family where there was a lot of spanking where the children had no real problems. Those children are all following the Lord, but I also think there was a lot of talking and explaining that was done with those children as well.

What is really frustrating now that my daughter has been Ezzo influenced is that my grandchildren when asked why they don't hit or be mean to a brother or sister the answer is because they get spanked, but they can't tell you that it is because it hurt the other child or makes them sad. They don't seem to get the connection between their actions and how it makes another person feel. It is like feelings are consided part of psychology and therefore not Christian.

Callasandra

[chelsea]

I really don't know anyone from AP/GBD backgrounds... I know families who probably spanked occassionally but their overall parenting style was/is very "involved" and they are great, loving, connected families with awesome kids
Neither do I. It would be nice to know some people who were AP/GBD that have young adult "children"...sometimes I wish I could "see" what a GBD-raised adult is "like" (of course that is stereotyping which "I know I know" is wrong to do.) Even though I'm raising my son in a way I know to be right I still think occasionally that it would be nice to have a future "picture" to even glance at every once in awhile to remind me that I AM doing the right thing. Perhaps I should go-a-lurking in the "parents of teens" section? :cool

[Soliloquy]

When I was raising my children the one thing I noticed was that the children from what I used to call the super pious perfect Christian homes were always the nastiest to other children. They were pleasant with the adults and to other children when adults were around, but bullied and picked on others when no adults were present. There was alot of spanking in these homes and I don't recall there being much talk as to why they needed to be kind to others, just spankings if they misbehaved.

This is VERY true. When children see that the strong can "gang up" and hit the weaker, they mimic that. Many, many times when children are punished, what is going through their heads is, "I always get blamed! I don't deserve this!" and thoughts like that, not contrition or a sense of justice. So, it seems perfectly natural to them to bully the weakest child in their circle. Also, when you feel like you've been the victim of violence (verval or physical) enough times, eventually you might feel like you just need to get it out of your system, and one way to try and do that is to re-direct the violence inflicted on you to someone weaker than you.

It was true w/ me, too, although I wasn't mean to other kids. But me and my friends used to always plan mean mommy, mean teacher, mean babysitter regularly--one kid got to be the mean mommy lock the other child in the closet, send them to bed w/o dinner, etc. It felt good to be the one being mean to someone who was helpless to defend themselves, instead of always the other way around. Whoever was playing the children of the "mean mommy," we'd plot how we were going to escape and run away or get revenge on "mean mommy." As I got older and began to babysit many of the children I took care of asked me to play this with them, too, all of their own accord. It seemed to be a universal role-playing game among children that I knew. I never thought about it as a result of punitive parenting, though, until I became a parent myself. I took one look and my newborn daughter and knew I could never make her feel like that. (Up until that point, though, Dobson and Ferber were very appealing to me. I wanted to be in control.)

[Mom2Thomas]

My mother was always told how super well-behaved my sister and I were growing up. I know most of her friends and family assumed she spanked, because I remember the conversations she used to have with her friends. Ironically my parents were very non-punitive in how they raised us.

Although far from perfect, for the most part, I believe my parents raised us with a lot of the principles of GBD. although they of course have never heard the term. :) I was "swatted" only twice in my entire life, once I don't remember but my mother told me the story. My sister and I (identical twins) were still in diapers and were told not to cross a certain point on the sidewalk and of course immediately proceeded to do what we had just been told not to, and my father lightly swatted us over our diapers. The only other time that we were swatted (this one I remember) was when my sister and I decided to take a detour home from kindergarten. Back in the days when you could walk home from school by yourself, my sister and I decided to stop by a friends house. We came home over an hour late, and my mother out of angry relief swatted us a few times on the backside as we walked in the door. It didn't hurt, and I remember being deeply impressed by the worry and relif on mom's face. The swats didn't affect my behavior, but the look on her face ensured I never, ever did this to her again. My mother came up to us an hour or so later and apologized and explained that she had been worried, etc.

My mother grew up in an abusive home, and even though she was a very young parent (age 20) was determined that she would raise her children in a different environment, and amazingly she did. Although we weren't homeschooled, I think my parents had such a good outcome because they spent alot of time with us, very little television, family game nights etc.

So I know that you can have well behaved children without having to resort to spanking. I know I will be tested, but I am :pray that I follow my parents good example.....

[DebraBaker]

Mom2Thomas,

Your mom sounds like an amazing woman and she has spared you the job of breaking the cycle.

Thank you for sharing your background.

Debra Baker

[Leslie]

It was true w/ me, too, although I wasn't mean to other kids. But me and my friends used to always plan mean mommy, mean teacher, mean babysitter regularly--one kid got to be the mean mommy lock the other child in the closet, send them to bed w/o dinner, etc. It felt good to be the one being mean to someone who was helpless to defend themselves, instead of always the other way around.


How very, very interesting. I never thought about it before, but we did sometimes play along those lines as kids. And I can't imagine games like that even occurring to my sons. What they will play is 'bad little monkey buying hundreds of houses and smashing them all because he doesn't know any better.' they seem to really like their bad little monkey (his name is Gibber) and they laugh and try to out-do each other in the making up destructive things he does in complete ignorance and innocence. But I've never heard them role playing as adults pitted against kids. In fact, even with Gibber, when he does his naughty things, they try to explain to him why he can't destroy hundreds of houses, he never even gets punished.

[milkmommy]

It was true w/ me, too, although I wasn't mean to other kids. But me and my friends used to always plan mean mommy, mean teacher, mean babysitter regularly--one kid got to be the mean mommy lock the other child in the closet, send them to bed w/o dinner, etc. It felt good to be the one being mean to someone who was helpless to defend themselves, instead of always the other way around.

I remember doing this and we'd set up situations resulting in having to spank the "naughty one" :blush :td It was all about being the 'bigger one" and getting to be the one in charge. :doh
Or what about Michel Pearl who talks about how wonder full it was seeing his daughter spank her dolls and how she'd turn into such a great mom?

Deanna

[ArmsOfLove]

Leslie--that is adorable!

[Mom2Thomas]

Thanks Debra,

My mom was a very sensitive 12th child out of a family of 13 children.