Why do people think babies can manipulate them?

[Lantern Light Mama]

:cry Where does the whole idea that you can spoil a baby come from to begin with? And why in the world do people think that infants can manipulate them by crying?

Ok, if I were going to explain to a person that infants have no ability to manipulate, then if they asked something like...."well at what age can they" what would I say to them? I am researching but right now my brain is boggled because I am majorly stressed (rotten day but that is another story).

[sadie]

Well, the first thing I would explain is that manipulation is a learned skill, not an inborn one. No one is born knowing how to manipulate. Ergo, it is impossible for a baby to be manipulative...they would have to learn how first. Learning how to be manipulative involves mastering many skills, such as judging situations, character assessment, and figuring out the particular weaknesses of the individual you are trying to control. These are all skills that take at least several years to acquire.

Second, manipulation is not a skill that everyone automatically learns how to do. All babies learn to walk, speak, eat solid foods, etc. All babies, however, do not learn to be manipulative. Their environments much teach them that manipulation is a good survival skill to learn. If they are in an environment where honest and open communication and healthy conflict resolution skills are in place, it is unlikely that they would ever feel manipulation to be necessary.

Therefore, I would tell people that if they believe their baby is manipulative, then the baby must be a genius. And if they believe their toddler/older child is manipulative, ask them what kind of environment they must have provided for the child to ever feel that manipulation was a good skill to learn.

[joandsarah77]

I think it depends on what you mean by manipulation. Manipulation doesn't have to be that complex, nor does it always have to be negative. A baby under a year might hold his arms up because he knows he will be picked up, he's lernt to do something to make something else happen.
Ok in a rush, we are going out.
Jo

[Lantern Light Mama]

But that is not true manipulation, that just means he wants to be held, and why not? Babies don't stay babies forever and one day you won't be able to hold them like that anymore. They really do grow up fast.

But what I am more concerned about is why someone would think a very small infant could manipulate? I mean a baby's very survival depends on his parents meeting his need, so it is instinct to cry, and so how is this manipulation in someones eyes?

I am asking these questions mainly because I live in the south and there are many people here who think if you old a newborn too much it will spoil them. It is hard to get through to them, that loving and holding a child is not spoiling at all.

[ArmsOfLove]

According to dictionary.com "manipulate" means To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously

Babies cannot manipulate.

[Soliloquy]

This is how I think of it and explain it when it comes up:

Babies have NO concept that other people around them feel/think differently than they do. They assume that if they're tired/cold/hungry/wet/scared/hot/lonely, that Momma knows that because she feels it too. Babies don't know that Mamma would really like to sleep 8 straight hours, that Mamma would love 20 minutes to herself to shower and dress, that Mamma would love to eat her dinner with two hands, or drive across town without having to stop every 5 minutes to nurse.

In order to manipulate, babies would have to comprehend that every individual has different needs, wants, opinions, and preferences. They would then have to decide to prevent Mamma (or whoever) from meeting her own needs and meet baby's needs instead. Then, they'd have to figure out how to do it.

I've never known anything but love from my baby. Her needs and my needs don't always coincide, but that's not intentional on her part. She doesn't know that I would rather sleep straight through the night w/o nursing (I actually enjoyed night nursing when she was an infant, but now that she's 15 months I'd be thrilled if she night-weaned on her own). There's no way I can communicate that to her at this stage.

People are confusing baby communication with manipulation. Babies cry and raise their arms to communicate their needs. Manipulation is what older people do to try and meet their needs while depriving others at the same time. One of the things I love best about AP is that we are teaching our children that the strong & able take care of the weak & helpless, that families work together to get everyone's needs met.

[Lantern Light Mama]

It makes me stop and think that our world is too parent centered and not child centered enough. :hissyfit

[Soliloquy]

Forgot to add--

In the 1940s books and women's magazines said that babies cried to manipulate. Many "baby experts" said/wrote that mother's should only hold their babies every 4 hours--to feed and change them, then put them back down. :cry

[CelticJourney]

It makes me stop and think that our world is too parent centered and not child centered enough.

I agree and thought I would share some of my favorite quotes on the subject.....

"Let us bring the child back. The child is God's gift to the family...In this year of the family we must bring the child back to the center of our care and concern. This is the only way our world can survive because our children are our only hope for the future." Mother Teresa, at the White House prayer breakfast

Saint Francis de Sales, Doctor of the Church, reiterates: "All things need be done by love, not force." (45) He advises, "[discipline] little by little, slowly, gently as the angels do, by pleasing suggestions and without harshness," for he visualized angels as possessing "kindness, sweetness, firmness, patience, amiability, and holy tact."

Mother Teresa of Calcutta, in the 1994 prayer breakfast at the White House said:
"Are we willing to give until it hurts...or do we put our own interests first?...Our children depend on us for everything - their health, their nutrition, their security, their coming to know and love God. For all of this, they look to us with trust, hope and expectation. But often father and mother are so busy they have not time for their children...We are talking of love of the child, which is where love and peace must begin." (41)

But I have calmed and quieted my soul, like a child quieted at its mother's breast; like a child that is quieted is my soul. (Psalm 131)

Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me. (Matthew 25: 40)

The late Hungarian cardinal, Jozsef Mindszenty, whose cause for canonization is underway, writes: "The happiness of the child depends utterly upon the self-sacrifice and love of the mother." "Who has to sacrifice sleep, who has to watch the child? The mother has to endure it, she has to be brave. And if the little rogue will not go to sleep, she sings it a lullaby for the thousandth time, softly, gently, uncomplainingly. She is like the "valiant woman" of Holy Scripture who rises in the night. In the silence of the night she prays, and then sings a last little lullaby to the infant."

All of these quotes are secondary citations from Neo-Evangelizing the Catholic Family With An Alien Gospel by Thomas P. Mezzetti, Jr. M.D. and Jacintha C. Mezzetti

[chelsea]

I am asking these questions mainly because I live in the south and there are many people here who think if you old a newborn too much it will spoil them. It is hard to get through to them, that loving and holding a child is not spoiling at all.
Not to mention, that if you hold your child too much, he will never learn to crawl! :rolleyes (And I live in Canada...I guess these people are everywhere!)

[Katherine]

I have lived in the South all my life, too. Here are some of my impressions:

I think with older generations, these ideas sprang from the popular teaching at that time.

With my parents' generation, I think the prevailing punitive mindset re: discipline and the emphasis on children's sinful natures really fed into this dynamic. Christian teachings seeped into secular thinking, I believe. If people constantly hear that children are sinful/selfish/sneaky etc. then it's easy to interpret baby's every action in a negative light.

In the current generation, I see a lot of entitlement issues. We have the right to live a convenient, enjoyable life and make the choices we most prefer. Socializing, free time, and pursuing our own interests or careers with few restrictions are viewed as things which are owed to us. When people are inconvenienced, they feel they have been wronged and treated unjustly--and they either search out an escape route or look for someone to blame--baby, unfortunately, makes an easy target. :(

RE: why people think babies are manipulative... I think it might have more to do with how adults *feel* when a baby cries or needs something, and less to do with what is intellectually sound, emotionally responsible, and so on. I have felt that surge of frustration myself at times and assigned negative intent to my child's action b/c I was tired, stressed, hungry, or discouraged. It's easy to do.

[mom2threePKs]

Babies have NO concept that other people around them feel/think differently than they do. They assume that if they're tired/cold/hungry/wet/scared/hot/lonely, that Momma knows that because she feels it too. Babies don't know that Mamma would really like to sleep 8 straight hours, that Mamma would love 20 minutes to herself to shower and dress, that Mamma would love to eat her dinner with two hands, or drive across town without having to stop every 5 minutes to nurse.


Mothers are often as self focused as their babies :rolleyes
They have no idea that their baby could possibly be lonely if they are not, or that their baby could want to be held if they are touched out or that their baby could not be tired when they are tired. :banghead

I have explained it with some succes by saying,
"Your baby has no clue if it is safe in suburbia or living on the Savannah's of Africa. If he is on the Savannah and you put him down he is not safe. There are predators that can smell him, and hear his cry and know that he is defenseless. His cry keeps him safe. Being held keeps him safe. So just imagine that a lion is stalking him when he needs to be held cause he honestly doesn't know the difference!"

Magan

[haak]

This was such a good and informative thread. The only thing I ever think to say when someone says babies can manipulate is that that is putting and adult value on a baby and that it is developmentally impossible. I love all the new info I just read. Thanks everyone!

[PrincessMommie]

:cry Where does the whole idea that you can spoil a baby come from to begin with? And why in the world do people think that infants can manipulate them by crying?


I don't know but it drives me crazy!! :hissyfit

[malakoa]

about twelve years old.

it just requires a higher level of thinking children don't have

[Chris3jam]

Without having read all the posts, it's because they take it personally. OK -- off to read some of the answers! :D

[Chris3jam]

ooo, ooo! Such good answers! :clap

[schoolofmom]

I like to point out to people that a baby doesn't even know how to smile when he's born. He has to learn that from his surroundings. And if in that time he's managed to also discern all the small facets of human behavior that can allow him to manipulate a parental response, then he is, as a pp said, a genius. And if he's a genius, they are faced with an even bigger responsibility of giving him the stimulation a growing mind needs from touch. ;)

[malakoa]

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/5/T051200.asp

a bunch of good information on fussy babies.

Including manipulative stuff.... good golly.

[Meredith]

I think they're projecting thier own motives onto their babies.

[MarynMunchkins]

Because, IMHO, they weren't fully prepared for what having a baby would entail, and feel manipulated. :shrug I felt like my older two were manipulating me to get what they want because I had no idea how much work and how little sleep new babies would be.

By the time I got to Colin (the 3rd high need baby) I knew what I was getting into, and while I was exhausted and frustrated, I also understood that he was only asking for what he needed. FTR, I still think my kids are only asking for what they need from me. :)

My standard response for the "spoiling" comment is "He's not a fruit salad - he doesn't spoil." or "Things only spoil when you leave them alone to rot." ;)

[Chris3jam]

:lol "Things only spoil when you leave them alone to rot." That's mine too! :lol

[purplerose]

I too agree that the world is NOT child-centered at all!!!!!!!!!!!! :td That many children should be seen and not heard! I HATE hearing that from people "you hold your baby too much, you'll spoil them".....well, even IF this "scientific evaluation" was correct, why should they care anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :bangheadI love getting AP friendly doctors who tell you HOLD YOUR BABY AS MUCH AS YOU CAN!!!!!!!!!!!! :highfive People just hear something "mainstream" and think it must be right without researching or learning on their own!!!!!!!!!! :sad2 :banghead :bheart :amen

[odetta]

"Things only spoil when you leave them alone to rot."

Oooh, I like that! :tu Gonna have to remember that one.

[Paz]

"Things only spoil when you leave them alone to rot."

What a *brilliant* response!!!!! I :heart it!