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allisonintx
05-04-2005, 08:20 PM
So, I've been in Rebellion. Everyone is so 'Charlotte Mason this and Charlotte Mason that' that I was NOT wanting to read anything about it. Anyway, tonight I buckled down and read about her. So, okay, how is this different from a montessori aproach? Of course Montessori has taken on all kinds of meanings in America that would have made Maria Montessori turn in her grave, but, I digress. At least now I understand that I have a CM philosophy and that will make it easier to connect to other like-minded homeschoolers. I just HATE to be part of the crowd... :laughtears

RealLifeMama
05-04-2005, 09:29 PM
I don't know the answer to your question, as I am not currently homeschooling.
But I am sorry, I just had to reply!
I have been so consumed with my fertility lately and trying to figure out my cycles, I saw the title of your post and thought "Yes, me too! " thinking it was about cervical mucus! :blush

Leslie
05-04-2005, 09:58 PM
I know a bit about CM, but very little about Montessori. The one difference I do know is that Montessori creates an artificial environment, child-sized props, and Charlotte Mason thought it was better for the child to learn things in his own real environment with real things in the real world.

So, where do I go to find a brief explanation of the basics of Montessori??

Chris3jam
05-05-2005, 07:00 AM
The one difference I do know is that Montessori creates an artificial environment, child-sized props, and Charlotte Mason thought it was better for the child to learn things in his own real environment with real things in the real world.

That is one of the things that probably would have Maria Montessori turning in her grave. That is not the way the woman worked, but it seems to be the way the schools have made it. Unless you get one or more of the books that Maria Montessori wrote herself, you are not going to get a totally accurate description of her "method". "The Discovery of the Child", "The Absorbent Mind", "The Montessori Method", all written by Maria Montessori.

An excerpt out of the introduction in "The Montessori Method", by Maria Monstessori----

"It is 70 years since Montessori (chapter 2) became interested, while yet a medical student serving as an intern in the psychiatric clinic of Rome, in the "idiot children" then housed in the insane asylums. It is 66 years [she began work in the late 1800's] since she began the work with mentally deficient children that led her to examine Jean Itard's (1801) attempts at educating the "wild boy of Aveyron" and to utilize the materials and methods devised by Edouard Seguin (1844, 1866) for educating the mentally deficient children. It is 57 years since she extended her modified Seguin-approach in education of retarded children to the education of normal young children in the first Casa dei Bambini, or "Homes of Children". . . . . . ."

She started out "educating" these "idiot children" to be self-sufficient members of society. This led to her discovering that these children were not "insane", nor "idiots", but just neglected and not stimulated or "allowed" to learn.

Anyway, I would suggest one of those books to get a better picture. . . . .

PrincessMommie
05-05-2005, 11:41 AM
I"Yes, me too! " thinking it was about cervical mucus! :blush


LOL!!! :) :hugs

allisonintx
05-05-2005, 02:08 PM
That is one of the things that probably would have Maria Montessori turning in her grave. That is not the way the woman worked, but it seems to be the way the schools have made it. Unless you get one or more of the books that Maria Montessori wrote herself, you are not going to get a totally accurate description of her "method". "The Discovery of the Child", "The Absorbent Mind", "The Montessori Method", all written by Maria Montessori

Exactly the thing I was talking about, the idea about artificial environments being 'montessori' when they're really Day Care. If you actually read those three books, you'll find that CM is not the first/only to have those observations about how children/people learn.

Leslie
05-05-2005, 04:23 PM
So maybe Montessori and CM are actually the same? I doubt I'll have time in the next . . . five years! to start another book, with the list I have to get through! :lol Is there any place I can get a more concise explanation of her method and philosophy, maybe a website? I assumed, when CM talked about how creating an artificial environment for children, that she was referring to Maria Montessori since they were educational advocates working at about the same time, and CM did explain her method sometimes by contrasting it with whatever else was out there.

Shining Light
05-06-2005, 11:47 PM
Here is a brief overview of CM approach (or as this source calls it "Living Books"): http://www.eaglespeak.org/curric/approach/living
Here is a brief overview of Montessori: http://www.eaglespeak.org/curric/approach/mont
I just quickly skimmed through the descriptions to see if they seemed to match my understanding and they do but, there could be some things in there that someone more knowledgeable on the subject may disagree with. I don't know for sure.

There are definitely some similarities in the two approaches but there are also some differences. I think there are some key pieces to CM that are not necessarily part of Montessori such as "short lessons," emphasis on living books, narration as a key form of assessment, etc.

I'm not an expert by any means but this is just what I can think of off of the top of my head.

SueQ
05-08-2005, 04:41 AM
I was just doing a google search to try to find and article that compares the two but so far haven't. I did find this:
http://www.jmjpublishing.com/montessori_basics.htm that explains the basics of Montessori and also mentions Charlotte Mason in the article but doesn't really compare them.

Leslie
05-09-2005, 05:02 PM
Okay, I'm going to take a stab at this based on the two website articles posted and what I know of CM. I'll take quotes from both articles and comment on them. I guess those who have a firmer grasp of Montessori (MM) can correct me.
http://www.eaglespeak.org/curric/approach/mont
http://www.jmjpublishing.com/montessori_basics.htm

First of all, it looks like the goals of both MM and CM are the same:

"education, rather than being the rote transfer information, must seek to serve the whole child, and to nurture the human potential of each individual."

"The long-term aim of a Montessori education is to develop productive, culturally literate, life long learners who display a sense of responsibility for self and the global community. Through working in cooperation with the child's nature, it is believed that a sense of wonder and desire to learn can be maintained throughout an individual's lifetime."

CM agreed that the whole child - body, mind and spirit - needed to be included in his education. If education was handled correctly, a child should grow and develop to his full potential and enjoy continuing his education for his entire life.

"Her educational foundations have been tested and have survived because her ultimate goal was to preserve the dignity of the child. How can a child not thrive and learn in a prepared environment that emphasizes respect and integrity? A respect and integrity not only of the materials, but more importantly of the child, and of those with whom he interacts."

CM also placed respect for the child very high. She felt that education, twaddly books and insipid lectures, under-estimated the ability of children.

--------------------------------

"The basic philosophy of Montessori is to 'follow the child.' "

This is the similar, yet very, very different. Both present learning opportunities and allow the child to take from it what appeals at the time. But my impression is that MM is closer to unschooling - lay out the materials and let the child wander around and learn if he wants to. You provide the opportunity, but the child doesn't have to take it unless he wants to. Or the child may take some and leave the rest. CM is similar, you provide lots of material (in books) and the child assimilates what he needs and discards the rest, he won't latch on to it in his mind, so it won't be in his narrations. The difference is, with CM, each child will be learning from the same materials, they won't be by-passing some books altogether in favor of another book. But each will get something different, a different twist, on the book, his own individual slant. I'm seeing a lot of unschooling in MM, but I don't know if I'm getting that correct or not.

"In the Montessori environment the materials are designed to be self-correcting. ... it allows the child to learn in an atmosphere of success and positive reinforcement. The child corrects his own errors and works towards the mastery of concepts through repeated manipulations of the materials. His motivation is not for external reward, but for internal fulfillment."

CM also wanted learning to be its own reward. But the self-correcting aspect doesn't sound like anything CM mentioned. Her goal was for children to to educate themselves by learning to extract information from books themselves. So there's an element of independence in both MM and CM. But there, the similarity ends.

MM seems to rely heavily on environment:

"The basics of the Montessori principles can be illustrated with a triangle, where you have the child; you have the directress, or the teacher; and you have the environment which includes the materials. The teacher takes the role of directress, it's one who directs the child to learning. She is responsible for the preparation of the environment. The prepared environment is one that invites the child to grow. It's an attractive environment that will lead the child to a spontaneous exploration and discovery, or self-learning."

This is what I meant when I said above "that Montessori creates an artificial environment, child-sized props, and Charlotte Mason thought it was better for the child to learn things in his own real environment with real things in the real world." Charlotte Mason didn't go out of her way to specially prepare an optimum environment for children to learn.

"The interrelated, hands-on, sequential Montessori materials provide concrete learning on which the child can build abstract understanding. They are designed to be self-correcting and teach one skill/concept at a time which encourages development of the individual's self-confidence and problem-solving abilities."

CM differs in that it doesn't really set apart specific skills for special focus so the child can develop mastery. CM is more of an all-over-at-the-same-time experience, the child would master skills as they came up in his daily routine - he'd learn to tie shoes because his shoes need to get tied every morning, but there's no special time or anything set aside during school to specifically encourage that. With MM, I get the sense that the child is encouraged to focus on a task to master it. CM also relies heavily on focusing attention, but the focus is more in the mind, attending to assimilation of information, especially from words. MM sounds much more hands-on. The articles talk about color-coding with phonics cards and household tasks, and, in geography, putting together map cut-outs. CM is more about reading about different places and getting a sense of what the people are like in that country, and then the child would be interested enough to go find the country on a map in a book.

What I'm seeing is that MM is more sensory, learning by doing. CM has that element, especially in handicrafts, but learning is primarily the assimilation of ideas (thoughts and concepts), which are processed in the child's mind from books, art, music and his natural environment. The senses seem to have a larger role in a Montessori education than in a CM education.

Chris3jam
05-09-2005, 05:52 PM
But my impression is that MM is closer to unschooling - lay out the materials and let the child wander around and learn if he wants to.

Not exactly. But close. As you pointed out, the environment is "set up" with age-appropriate activities. There are "centers", and children are encouraged to explore, and helped, if needed. Maria Montessori started out working with children who were thought to be mentally deficient (specifically in the insane asylum in Rome). She incorporated what she had learned from Jean Itard's work with the "wild boy of Aveyron", and his attempts at educating him, and Edouard Seguin's approach to educating mentally retarded children. This is the reason for age-defining activities, and focusing on mastering certain abilities in a certain order; there are "windows" of opportunity. For example (as shown by the work with the "wild boy"), if a child does not lay down the neural patterns for speech by a certain age, a great chunk of that ability is lost forever. Certain fine and gross motor skills must be worked on by certain times, in order to develop. She just extended and modified her "method" for normal children, incorporating what she had learned through the work with the mentally deficient children (most of whom, she found out, were NOT mentally deficient, but just under-stimulated and neglected). The emphasis was on life-long learning and self-sufficiency, and the child sized props helped in that area, reducing any frustration of, say, little hands handling a full-size broom, versus little hands handling a child-sized broom. It is basically bringing the "real" adult world into theirs, where they can handle it. It is very hands on, as sensory input is important in laying down those little neurons. A small child who, say, is able to touch and feel something and see it and use it in context (in action, as it were) has more of a chance at retaining the information in order to put it to use later. There are important connections between sensory input, like touch, and the brain. The more sensory input, in as many areas as possible (touch, smell, sound, sight), the better the retention. They still use a lot of similar methods in working with mentally-challenged children.

Leslie
05-09-2005, 06:16 PM
Chris3jam, I hope you don't mind me picking your brain. :mrgreen

<<Not exactly. But close. As you pointed out, the environment is "set up" with age-appropriate activities. There are "centers", and children are encouraged to explore, and helped, if needed>>

Maybe I'm confusing unschooling with child-led/child-directed?

<<The emphasis was on life-long learning and self-sufficiency, and the child sized props helped in that area, reducing any frustration of, say, little hands handling a full-size broom, versus little hands handling a child-sized broom>>

<<There are important connections between sensory input, like touch, and the brain. The more sensory input, in as many areas as possible (touch, smell, sound, sight), the better the retention.>>

I saw that Maria Montessori valued a lifetime of learning, yet I rarely see Montessori talked about beyond the elementary school level, probably because most Montessori schools are for the youngest children. I hear about Montessori preschools, but not many Montessori grade schools.

It looked like, at some point, Montessori switched to more abstract and reading, but I didn't see in either article when that would happen. And the one article that talked about ages only went up to age 12, but Montessori can go all the way up to high school, right? What would a Montessori high school class look like? Students reading books? Or students doing hands-on activities? Or scheduled times for both?

Chris3jam
05-09-2005, 08:17 PM
Chris3jam, I hope you don't mind me picking your brain.

Ooo. Be careful -- there are scary things in there! :D Really, it's not in my brain, but the four books I have sitting on my desk! :lol

Maybe I'm confusing unschooling with child-led/child-directed?

Unschooling has SO many different faces. Unschooling, to me, is child-led/directed. MM probably would not be considered completely and totally unschooling, though (but neither would CM). :D

I saw that Maria Montessori valued a lifetime of learning, yet I rarely see Montessori talked about beyond the elementary school level, probably because most Montessori schools are for the youngest children. I hear about Montessori preschools, but not many Montessori grade schools.

It looked like, at some point, Montessori switched to more abstract and reading, but I didn't see in either article when that would happen. And the one article that talked about ages only went up to age 12, but Montessori can go all the way up to high school, right? What would a Montessori high school class look like? Students reading books? Or students doing hands-on activities? Or scheduled times for both?

Well, from what I've read so far, 5th grade was kind of the "cut-off". Apparently, they would be self-sufficient and self-directed enough, and know enough of the basics (reading, writing, arithmetic) at that point to keep going on their own with minimal directing. I've heard of the higher grades using a Montessori approach -- as a matter of a fact, there was an article in our local paper sometime recently about a high school that does just that. From what I remember, it was reading, lots and lots of dialogue, conversing/give and take with the "instructor" and hands-on, practical application. I'm not sure about scheduled times. Seems to me, when reading about something interesting, further research or real-life examples would just flow into/from it. I know that when my boys ( 7 and 8 yo) and I are discussing something, we tend to go off on tangents (related to the original subject of discussion, of course). A story from Greek Mythology led into a discussion about Biblical applications, which led to present-day sayings, which led to spelling and origins of words (which is why certain words are spelled so illogically), which led to parallels in Roman mythology, which led to . . . . well, I think you see. Now, that's one example from me and the boys, and it might not be 100% Montessori :D , even though we did finish the story before going off on the spider-web of other ideas prompted by it (Montessori was "finish what you started and clean it up/put it away before you start something else" -- at least for hands-on activities). I think something was mentioned about working together with peers (but they do that in the younger set, too). Also, finding mentors, I think, might have been mentioned. I haven't read that far yet in the books by Montessori herself. :D I can let you know what I find out. . . . . . . .

Leslie
05-09-2005, 08:39 PM
I can let you know what I find out. . . . . . . .


Yes, thank you, that would be lovely! :mrgreen