Ezzo supporters cornered DH and I last night...

[zak]

:::del post:::

[Wonder Woman]

:laughtears at your dh! sounds like yu guys handled it great!

[schoolofmom]

TBH, I wouldn't be surprised if her friends went to LLL in the first place because of supply problems, not the other way around. As for demand feeding adversely affecting supply, IIRC that's an old bit of misinformation that Ezzo used to pass along... I'd better check ezzo.info to back that up though.

[snlmama]

Hmmm, I remember hearing the exact same thing from an Ezzo follower I know. Makes me wonder if that "story" is in the book? :/ The gist of it is that the breasts need time to "fully refill" between feedings and if you don't allow this to happen you won't make enough milk. :rolleyes That's the story the Ezzo pusher I know tells. :/
There is also the issue of some people seeing cue feeding as feeding only when the baby cries to eat and if they get a sleepy baby like my second they don't feed often enough to keep up supply. However, most LCs will rec. "cue feeding," but also rec. that you wake a newborn to eat at least every 3 hours during the day. ;) Just some fuzzy info and definitions ala Ezzo. If cue or demand feeding means feeding only when they cry from hunger, then yes, there are some babies who won't eat often enough to build up supply. Those babies are few and far between and usually have something else going on that leads to the sleepiness and lack of hunger cues.... Most healthy babies will wake at least every 3 hours or more to feed and be fine even if you weren't told to feed at least that often. We actually had some supply issues for awhile w/ my second even though I demand fed and having demand fed a "hungry" baby previously and had no supply problems, I'd say the issue was only waking him every 3 hours and if I had it to do again I would wake the baby closer to every 2 to feed. :/


Ed to say: please excuse that last run on sentence. No time to reword it right now. :O

[zak]

So, how to Ezzo followers feed? They say you're gonna eat at 1, 4, 7, etc... what happens when the baby cries @ 230? Do they just let them cry?

I am feeding whenever he wants it - I look for rooting, clicking, etc... and I also 'feed' when he cries... I guess that's "comfort" feeding??

Anyhow - I'm wondering how the Ezzo people deal with a baby who is hungry before their 'scheduled' time??

Forgive my ignorance - I've not really studied the ezzo stuff before... just now exploring the ezzo.info in depth now :)

[greenemama]

sometimes they feed the baby. some people do, others don't. i think the book tells you that if they've cried for too long (45 minutes?) to feed them. i don't remember.

good for your dh. :heart

[erinee]

(DH said, "Isn't that the one we hate?"

:laughtears :clap

[SandKsmama]

So, how to Ezzo followers feed? They say you're gonna eat at 1, 4, 7, etc... what happens when the baby cries @ 230? Do they just let them cry?

Yeah, pretty much. Or, if they do "give in" and feed the crying baby, then they feel guilty for doing so - it's a *hard* emotional cycle to break let me tell ya! And it's not just breastfeeding moms who struggle - I have a friend, a bottle feeding mom, and I saw her many times sit and wait while her son was screaming b/c "it wasn't time yet".

And yes, it is an Ezzo thing - I don't know if it's in Babywise, but it's *definitely* in the "Christian" version Preperation for Parenting that demand feeding leads to low milk supply. (??? Just one example of many of how Ezzo's logic is so completely backward)

Stay away, far far away:-) You're doing great, mom. And good for your dh! That comment was too funny!

Amanda

[schoolofmom]

Here we go:
Parents following the Ezzo method are
taught that mothers who feed five to six times daily
can be assured of adequate milk production and that
they will experience effective milk ejection,
breastfeeding elements of which they claim mothers
who demand feed will have problems.

I found this here (http://www.ezzo.info/Aney/perinataleducation.pdf).

[zak]

Thanks all. DH's heart breaks when our son cries - and we're holding him! Neither of us could let him CIO...

Thanks for the info/clarification! It's nice to know where they are coming from too. So that if I ever have the courage to say anything, I'll have my facts straight.

:)

[milkmommy]

(DH said, "Isn't that the one we hate?" -
:laughtears at that ;) on the rest Oh My gosh I remember being told by Ezzo supporters the whole breast filler up phase :rolleyes ummm no BM is supply and demand... I occasionally post on another site that emphazies rountinues for some like ME it means an appropiate age level comfortable structure to mold your days too, for some its strick never changing for fear of spoiled rotton kids scheduling. Well I can say amoung the Ezzo gals (as a whole) 6 months is the Max for breastfeeding most say their milk just "dissapeared" after than and most don't make it past 12 weeks with out adding formula.

Deanna

[LauraK]

I made the mistake of reading babywise when I had a very fussy 2 week old and was an exhausted first time mom with a baby that cried...a lot. The gist is you put them on an eat, wake, sleep cycle of approximately 2.5-3 hour. (Since you have this 30 minute window they will say you aren't really on a schedule). So each cycle consists of feeding them...then you try and keep them awake after feeding then an hour or 1.5 hours later you put them down for naps. Putting down for naps means you place them in their crib and let them cry until they fall asleep. He gives an example of his own grandchild who took 45 minutes to cry herself to sleep at each nap. He just says...this is her pattern...like it is normal. This is when I ditched the book. However for some reason the 2.5 hour between feeding thing stuck in my mind. Ezzo parents try to extend the feeding time in public with bouncing and holding. I do think babywise says...if they wake early from a nap...again just let them cry unless they are really really distressed until it is time for them to wake-up and eat??? I imagine if you let your baby cry themselve to sleep up to 45 minutes for each nap for 3 naps a day and at night you would never even notice their cries.

Until 8 weeks you only let them cry at the beginning of naps and at the beginning of the night but you do respond to them if they wake up at night. Somewhere at 8-12 weeks you also let them cry if they wake up at night and do not feed them.

IT IS HORRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Horrible horrible horrible stuff in my opinion.

I have never gotten out of my mind that if I followed that book I would have been leaving my daughter crying in her crib alone up to 3 hours a day...every day. That this man endorsed this treatment for his own grandchild and wrote about it in Babywise. Uggh. The think I hate most is that he calls this "God's Way".

Another book to avoid is the Baby Whisperer because she does schedules too but does not advocate crying it out so you do think it is gentle. I made the mistake of getting this book next but my dd never followed what the book said and it really made me feel inadaquate. I really wished I had read different books as a new mom. At least I never let her CIO and all is OK. I now sleep with my 2nd baby and feed on demand and feel much better overall and have more supply than I did with my first. I never had supply problems either way but my dd#1 and dd#2 always fed from 6-8 times a day so I did not ever really listen to the books that much. They just messed with my head.

Don't read these books...especially if you are a tired stressed out mom or a pregnant mom. They are bad bad bad.

[Meli]

(DH said, "Isn't that the one we hate?"

:laughtears :clap


That's what I was going to say!

[TulipMama]

Some of the mindset that parents pick up from Ezzo is in the story of our experiences (http://www.ezzo.info/Voices/failed.htm) that I wrote up.

For more info about Ezzo and milk supply issues, I recommend Laurie's pages (http://www.angelfire.com/md2/moodyfamily/casestudies.html) from when she was a Contact Mom/Breastfeeding advisor as well as this article, Evidences for Cue-Feeding (http://www.gentlemothering.com/articles/cuefeeding.php). Both relate specifically to Ezzo's teachings, though the second one doesn't mention it by name. It's one of the most helpful resources for Ezzo moms who value breastfeeding and need help in understanding why their milk supply is jeopardized.

I honestly thought, after reading Babywise and in spite of reading the Womanly Art, that a routine was good for baby and for my milk supply. *shrug* Ezzo is persuasive, even when he's talking nonsense.

[TulipMama]

Btw, I was laughing at your Hubby's reply.

We were involved in organizing a marriage and family conference. Hubby said in a loud voice in the middle of the meeting, "Well, we need to make certain what is taught is culturally appropriate and Biblical--not whacked out like Ezzo's teachings."

Two of the other families in the room have Ezzo materials on their bookshelves at home. *L* Gotta love a bold hubby.

[booboo]

I hope someday you could laugh at your dh's response. Too funny. :laughtears I think I"d say out loud, "yeah, that's the weirdo! Now, why do YOU like him?"

Personally, I think this Ezzo's books should be banned from the shelves. I couldn't read all the Babywise book. Even my dh read the first couple of chapters and he said Ezzo was too strict.

IMO, my encounters with Ezzo supporters: they are the most manipulative people I have ever met! I couldn't trust them at all. This Ezzo guy really needs to get a clue!

[zak]

Yeah, my hubby will tell people like it is... he's pretty passionate about not circ'ing, he supports extended BF, co-sleeping... most of what Sears says...

I forgot to add something funny... I told you I didn't sleep well last night, right? I have the problem of talking in my sleep... I have some VERY funny stories from DH about this... anyhow I was on the futon last night and DH was at his PC and I sat up and said... "Did you talk to her?"... he said "What?" (mind you, this is at about 2AM)... I said again, "Did you talk to her?"... he said, "About what, Angela?"... I said, "DId you talk to her about breastfeeding?"... he said, "I guess I'll have to do that another day"... I said, "OK" and got up with the boy and went to bed. LOL!!!! These crazy people are invading my DREAMS!!!

[greenemama]

culturally appropriate and Biblical--not whacked out like Ezzo's teachings.

:laughtears

i love this. and normally when someone is that bold an uses words like "whacked out" the person who follows the very stuff doesn't say a word. the intimidation factor. :)

angela -- OT -- my dh talks in his sleep and the other morning i was waking him up enough to tell him to remember to listen for henry because i was going to breakfast with jude and my mom and i said, "what did i just say?" and he said, "what? okay, i need to check the levels." he was dreaming about some work project. i guess what we obsess over we dream about, right? :)

[TulipMama]

the intimidation factor.

Totally! No one commented. Later one of them said something along the lines of, "Let's be sure it's Bibilically sound--we can all learn more." I'm guessing at the subtext there. . .

And the parenting part of the conference was okay. I was there to inject a few comments, spanking wasn't advocated, the teachers were grandparent aged--and had a little more perspective than younger parents would have had.

[Embracing Grace]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet: Ezzo grossly misconstrues what demand feeding is. He claims that parents who feed on demand will never wake up their sleeping infants to feed them, (since they're not "demanding" to be fed), even if they sleep for 6+ hours straight. That is why, according to him, feeding on demand jeopardizes milk supply. After all, how can you establish a supply if your infant prefers to sleep all day?? :rolleyes He states that when you practice Parent Directed Feeding, you will never let your young infant sleep longer than 2.5-3 hours and go without a feeding. He even cites "cases" of Failure to Thrive in demand fed babies, stating that the parents were "waiting" for the baby's cues to be fed, and never bothered to wake the baby up. :mad We all know that we are ALWAYS, ALWAYS supposed to wake our young infants to feed them every 2 or so hours. It's common sense! Ezzo presents demand feeding parents as completely unthinking people! Ugh.. okay, I am getting angry. :mad :lol I just finished reading Babywise a couple of days ago, just so I can be informed. Most of the people I know are committed followers. Yuck. :sick Ezzo followers believe his every word, they almost never bother to check out "the other" side of it all. :banghead Why is that??

[zak]

I was wondering what their 'beef' was with 'the other side' aka - AP. I wondered if they even know about AP. I know he speaks about 'demand-feeding' in his book, obviously giving the wrong ideas of DF... but do they even know the idea of AP?

Do they do their research and decide on Ezzo? Or does someone come along with Babywise and tell them how great it is to sleep through the night and they take it at first bait?

[grandmama]

Well, I think that too many people have been told that Babywise IS "growing kids God's way".....its like alot of things...if you can convince a group of people that that is what the Bible says and they have been taught themselves to never question anything, they will believe anything. Too sad because it is the little ones who bare the brunt of it! :cry

[arymanth]

Well, I think that too many people have been told that Babywise IS "growing kids God's way".....its like alot of things...if you can convince a group of people that that is what the Bible says and they have been taught themselves to never question anything, they will believe anything.

EXACTLY!!!! This is the thing I can see coming directly out of the "first time obedience" idea that Ezzo himself promotes. It assumes that the person in authority is ALWAYS RIGHT, and teaches the child NOT TO THINK FOR HIMSELF! These kids tend to grow up to believe whatever the person who appears to be "in authority" tells them, without finding out for themselves whether it is right or not. It does make for "good", compliant children/students.... but it also makes for very complacent Christians who are easily duped by any slick-talking teacher who throws out his own opinions laced with a few twisted scriptures... like Ezzo. :hissyfit

Sigh....


Stephanie

[shilohmm]

I know he speaks about 'demand-feeding' in his book, obviously giving the wrong ideas of DF... but do they even know the idea of AP?


Not if they're relying on Ezzo. He basically defines AP as permissive parenting, although at one point he seemed to have confused it with the theories behind primal scream therapy. :rolleyes

Totally agree with Stephanie that a lot of people who follow Ezzo were trained to not think for themselves but to follow an authority. Unfortunately, I think the kids that the Ezzo system is most successful with are those who tend to over-identify with authorities in the first place, so they get a double whammy. :cry I truly think some of these kids are terribly handicapped by their inability to see beyond what the authority tells them, and that they are very succeptible to ending up under an abusive authority of one kind of another. :cry

Sheryl

[Katherine]

He basically defines AP as permissive parenting, although at one point he seemed to have confused it with the theories behind primal scream therapy.


:laughtears :laughtears


I was also going to comment in response to several different posts: It's important to use labels carefully. There's a problem that comes with "over-defining" terms, IMO.... at some point, the definitions become more devisive than helpful. It's also useful to recognize that if you use different labels to refer to yourself, your style of parenting, or methods that you advocate, you may or may NOT be communicating effectively with the person who is hearing you. People all have VERY different ideas about what "Attachment Parenting" really is--based on their impression of the words themselves, and whatever reading or outside influences they've been exposed to. The same holds true for "parent-directed feeding" or "demand feeding" or words like "discipline."

We use labels within our own circles as a short-hand of sorts.... and hopefully we are working off a shared definition of those terms. In most cases, though, those "shared" definitions are not there, and we should make the effort to use more common language with people unless we already know *their* definitions. TBH, I don't really use parenting terminology with anyone except here on this board and occasionally when discussing something with dh. It leave too much room for misunderstanding and assumptions, IMO.

Not sure if all that made sense.. ??

[Havilah]

Made sense to me :) I don't call myself AP for the same reasons I hesitate to call myself "born again"... though I'm clearly both ;)

[Dizzy Blond]

DH said, "Isn't that the one we hate?"

Yeah for dh!! :cool :P I think I would have just said "Yes, hon, he's a real jerk" :P However, I'm probably not as nice as you are. ;)

[Embracing Grace]

Paula, made perfect sense to me too! :) I was thinking today how divisive these labels are. Instead of uniting as mothers, many women are placed against each other and the various parenting philosophies. How sad and isolating. How to solve this? I'm not sure. :shrug I know I need to be mindful to see beyond the labels into what is actually going on in a persons life.

[ArmsOfLove]

I would so hang out with you and your dh :highfive great answers :)

And I've known couples where the dh *sits on* the dw to keep her from going to the crying baby :cry

[Soliloquy]

:tol./
= :tol\=[
http://www.ezzo.info/Articles/BFg%20Frequency%20and%20AAP%20vs%20BW%20and%20.doc

This link lays it all out.
i have more to write but :tol is makin'G
IT difficulte. later!

[zak]

Thanks for the link!! That's pretty clear!

[bunbunmama]

I was wondering what their 'beef' was with 'the other side' aka - AP. I wondered if they even know about AP. I know he speaks about 'demand-feeding' in his book, obviously giving the wrong ideas of DF... but do they even know the idea of AP?

Do they do their research and decide on Ezzo? Or does someone come along with Babywise and tell them how great it is to sleep through the night and they take it at first bait?


From personal experience.... When DD was only a few weeks old, we started going to the church that we now attend regularly. Being new in the area, I didn't really know anyone, so I was excited to get to know a few women in the nursery who had children already (and one of whom was pregnant with her third). I met this particular woman's children, who seemed very polite and well-behaved, and thought to myself, "Wow...she really knows what she's doing. These kids are wonderful!" Well...as we were talking one day, and I was saying how tired I was from not getting enough sleep at night, she mentioned that they used Babywise with their girls, and how wonderful it was. Thank goodness she didn't offer me the book....but she did tell me a little bit about putting them on a schedule, etc. I of course thought that sounded wonderful....the getting enough sleep part, that is. So I tried it a little bit...stretching out the time between feedings....letting DD cry for a few minutes in her crib at bedtime (which was also recommended in my Good Housekeeping book on caring for babies/children!! :cry) Needless to say, it didn't last very long - I started having concerns about my milk supply...and I couldn't bear to hear DD cry. :bheart :sad2 I thank God I found this forum and found all this wonderful support.

Anyway....the point of this is: It is very easy to get sucked into something that seems to work so well for others when you are a new and very tired mother. Once you have gotten into it, it can be very difficult to escape, as I'm sure some of the other mothers here can tell you. I will always feel some guilt about taking the bait instead of listening to what my heart told me was right, but at least DD is healthy and happy (even through teething struggles!)

As for the woman who told me about Babywise....her little boy, who was born December 28, 2004, has a very misshapen head from being left to lay on his back all the time. It's so bad that even the pediatrician (the same one I go to, BTW) told her she has to get him off his back before the damage is permanent (she told us this in the church nursery). Even in church, she lets him lay in the crib in the nursery...she was in there last week, and all the other babies were being taken care of by other women, but she still just let her son lay there. I just wanted to pick him up and hold him, but I had hurt my back on Wednesday and couldn't lift him....

Please pray for this little boy....and for me, that I would have the courage to say something to his mother about this method of parenting.

[zak]

Mary! How awful about his head! I'll pray for him tonight... this weekend we had some bad experiences with our friends who have infants who are Ezzo fans... broke my HEART! :(