It is heartbreaking

[Chris3jam]

It was my turn for bathroom duty last night during our 3 - 4 yo Children's programs, in which I am a leader. I had 2 little guys to take to the bathroom (we usually go as pairs, but we were short leaders and I left the door open and didn't go all the way in). There is this little boy, who is a really nice little kid. He does not act like a stepford child (which, really, is almost weird for our church), and he's pretty outspoken (again, kind of different for our church) and smart and just plain a good boy. So, I never expected . . . . .well, he pulled down his pants to use the urinal last night, and I saw a deep, circular bruise (SO obviously the mark of a paddle), which must have been at least a few days old. :cry It was clear from across the room. It must have been a doozy when it was "fresh". I've seen bruises like that on my children who have really hurt themselves and gotten one of those deep, horrible purple and blue bruises, and a bruise like that would have looked like his after about a week (you know, that deep brownish color with yellow, etc.).

Now, I'm pretty sure that everyone in our church spanks. According to the teaching, it's expected and demanded of by God. They even cite "the blueness of the wound" verse as proving that you NEED to leave bruises; that a spanking should HURT, otherwise, what's the point? And good behaviour is SO very important to these parents. I know that the mom has been carrying around a book by Lisa Whelchel, and is a fan of Dobson (kinda like the rest of the church). But, still, I never expected this. . . . .

There is nothing I can do. I saw a child as young as 2 with one of those real deep blue and purple bruises, once when I was changing her diaper. That one was not as apparent as to the source of the hurt, and I thought to myself that surely she must have fallen or something. It must have been. No one could do that to a child (and this was back when I thought I had to spank my children *shudder*)!

I don't know what's happening. I know these parents love their children, I know they want the best for them. But, how can one SEE something like that, and feel good about it?

My mom came to visit us after one of our children was born. She actually went to church with us. Now, I'm not a big fan of my mother (um, well, we have issues), but even she remarked that the kids (mostly the older ones she saw) were "weird, like little robots." She said they even talked "funny and stiff".

You know, I think I would rather have all the problems in the world with a little smart-*ss, than have my kids be "little robots". (where's that huffy "hmmph" emoticon?)

Ok. Ramble time over. . . . .

[Oliveshoots]

:cry That really is so very sad. Just a couple of comments (my 2Cents worth):

1) Are you SURE it was from a spanking? Lately, my ds has been so rough and now that he's running, falls and gets hurt ALOT. And many times I think "sheesh, if someone saw this bruise on his bottom/leg/back, they would call dss on me!" and the bruises are only from him falling (he falls onto his bottom) onto a block or a car, or falling off his little chair or something. Now granted, they are small and not as "gruesome" as you described, but, for the benefit of the doubt, could it have been where he got hit with a ball or fell?

2) If you are sure it was from a spanking, in some states, if you are in a position where a child is in your care (ie: teacher, doctor/nurse, child care provider, etc.) you are REQUIRED by law to report signs of abuse. :shrug

But there is such a fine line....I mean, would you really be considered a "caregiver" if you were helping out as church; would you want this family investigated for abuse, especially if it could have just been an injury.

I am so sorry you had to see that...and so sorry for that little boy, for whatever reason he got the bruise.

Also, it makes me :sick that people would twist scripture to mean that bruising their child is "God's will". I'm sure that makes God very sad.

:hug just give that precious boy lots of encouragement and love and pray that his parents will change. That's all I really know for sure.

[Chris3jam]

1) Are you SURE it was from a spanking? Lately, my ds has been so rough and now that he's running, falls and gets hurt ALOT. And many times I think "sheesh, if someone saw this bruise on his bottom/leg/back, they would call dss on me!" and the bruises are only from him falling (he falls onto his bottom) onto a block or a car, or falling off his little chair or something. Now granted, they are small and not as "gruesome" as you described, but, for the benefit of the doubt, could it have been where he got hit with a ball or fell?

Yes. It was a very obvious "print" of a paddle. It was obvious. I used to spank :blush :blush (but not like that!). I know. I've had my children fall before, on their bottoms, etc., off their bikes or something, and thought the same thing. But, there is a difference. And I'm pretty sure I was not in any position to say anything. I probably would be WAY too much of a wimp, anyway! I might call my director and see what she says. . . . .

[TulipMama]

I don't know about the structure of your church. If it were in my church, it would be very hard for me to do--but I would go to the elders. I might even take a copy of Rebecca Prewett's "Avoiding Millstones." (http://www.fix.net/~rprewett/millstones.html)

This is not a spanking vs. non-spanking issue. This is an issue of loving, well-meaning parents taking the teachings of the elders in the church to the point that it is obviously abusive. And while I'm sure no one would *want* to hurt their child in a way that leads to death--it *can* happen. The elders need to be aware that people are hearing and applying their teaching in a way that is abusive.

[CelticJourney]

And I'm pretty sure I was not in any position to say anything. I probably would be WAY too much of a wimp, anyway! I might call my director and see what she says. . . . .

I am going to say this in my most gentle, sisterly way possible - YOU saw this, YOU are in the position to say something, you were put there, I will go so far as to say you were put in that position of knowing BY God. Remember He does not call the qualified (or non-wimps), He qualifies the those He calls (gives them strength and courage to face evil). YOU are accountable for doing what you can with what you know. He may not be a robot yet, but it sounds like someone is actively trying to 'beat' the 'little boy' out of him. Don't let him down, please.

I will echo a previous poster, in some states you are required and legal liable to report abuse. Because of dh's profession, I could never let obvious abuse go without risking both of us facing prosection or law suits.

[Dizzy Blond]

:bheart :cry I always thought that spanking was legally considered abuse when there was bruising. My mom was ready to press charges on my grandfather when he spanked my younger brother & left bruises. And we were regularly spanked, just never wounded. :cry

[Katherine]

I totally agree with TulipMama. I grew up in a place that was rabid in its support of spanking, but there was an line not to be crossed. The vast majority of punitive teachers would say this as well. Leaving deep bruises on a child is totally inexcusable no matter which parenting philosophy someone is following.

Churches still have a good bit of protection in our country but we must do everything in our power to prevent them from becoming safe havens where defenseless children are battered and abuse is taught systematically. The members of the congregation have more power to change this than anyone else, IMO. Adults--and especially church leaders--MUST be called into accountability, and if this can't happen within the family of believers, then where else is it going to happen? If you are convinced that you are seeing bruises that resulted from spanking, please... PLEASE voice your concerns to the church leadership, the parents themselves, or CPS. If you approach the church leaders, maybe we can find some "support" info for you about the potential ill effects from deep bruising? (duh! you'd think that would be obvious.. *sigh*)

This is an issue of loving, well-meaning parents taking the teachings of the elders in the church to the point that it is obviously abusive. And while I'm sure no one would *want* to hurt their child in a way that leads to death--it *can* happen.

I agree that it is obviously abusive. Again with the accountability thing... We all know what bruises are and how they feel. If a parent is leaving bruises on their child a lightbulb ought to go off inside their brains... an "alert" that something about what they are doing is WRONG. If it doesn't--if it's not obviously abusive to the parents--then they have become desensitized to human suffering or do not view their child as a thinking/feeling human being, and that is scary! I say this as a parent who used to spank: Abusive behavior with the best of intentions is still abusive behavior. Sometimes we need other people to confront us and point out the errors in our perspective--for our own good but especially for our children. I sure wish someone had come to me in love and concern and with legitimate and thought-provoking questions about why I was spanking.

1) Are you SURE it was from a spanking? Lately, my ds has been so rough and now that he's running, falls and gets hurt ALOT. And many times I think "sheesh, if someone saw this bruise on his bottom/leg/back, they would call dss on me!" and the bruises are only from him falling (he falls onto his bottom) onto a block or a car, or falling off his little chair or something.

This was also my first thought. I've cancelled pediatrician appts. before b/c ds had a bruise in a "suspicious-looking" place from falling, but I struggle to remember a time when he had something as severe as you're describing *on his bottom* and you seem pretty convinced that it was a paddle mark. Maybe you should just start casually making conversation with the parents involved... if you're on bathroom duty or changing a diaper, then it's very innocent and to be expected that you would see the bruises. If you mention it in a very relaxed way "Did Johnny have a bike wreck? He looked pretty banged up..." or "Is Marie toddling now? [with a smile] I noticed she had a little bruise on her bottom."

I dunno.. maybe that's too passive-aggressive? But you never know... parents might be a bit more restrained if they know someone is going to comment or ask them to explain the bruises. Childcare providers are required to ask.

*taking a deep breath* This just made me so upset to read.... I got spanked by a teacher in the first grade and had an actual blister on my bottom for about a week. No one defended me or told the teacher that she went too far. I remember that so clearly and have such strong emotions about it.... I can't imagine being a child who is blistered and bruised on a regular basis. Just think about what that little boy's life is going to be like, and about the burdens he will carry as an adult... and about the fact that he may well turn around and do the same thing to his own children some day. Heart-breaking...

Whatever you do or don't do, I hope you can be a loving influence in the lives of the kids and parents around you. :hug I know it's very hard to be the voice of dissent within your church family. :( Praying that God will give you wisdom and guidance.

[Chris3jam]

Well. This may be passive-aggressive, but I've been thinking. I sent up a quick prayer (again). . .

I know these people. I know they want the best. The mom is a little, well, seems a bit detached sometimes, and aloof and, well, a snob. I've tried talking to her before in a the lobby of our church (and other places), and she snubs me. She literally turns from me and walks away. I have tried to find out if I'd done anything wrong or anything, but, as far as I can tell, I didn't. She's just that way, according to many, many people. No problem. . . I guess I'm not in her "class". Now, before you think it's personal, it's not just me; like I said, many other people have said things, and I don't really care. But. . . I cannot go talk to her. That avenue is closed.

I do not want to cause a problem or division. There are MANY people in the church that would take exception if I said anything (it's that, let the parents do what they think is right and don't interfere, thing).

BUT, these parents are in that Sunday School class I told you I was in, and was having such a problem with. You know, the one I was trying to avoid in all my wimp-i-ness.

SOOOO, this answer popped into my mind, as I was sending up one of those frantic "Please, God, just TELL me!" prayers (again). I assume it's an answer. I will go to that class (they are still discussing the subject of spanking). I will ask the questions, of the pastor teaching the class, "What is the line between spanking and abuse? Do we leave bruises? And how 'bad' should these bruises be? How long should they last? What is OUR duty to following the law about NOT leaving bruises? What is our duty in leadership positions here at church in following the law that states that anybody in a leadership postion must report any suspicious bruising?"

The other thought came that I should just go to him, maybe before class, and ask these questions.

Anybody have any other ideas? Especially about more questions, or what type? Or should I just "not worry about it and for Pete's sake, do NOT get involved!" as dh says.

[schoolofmom]

I think that might be a good plan.

I must respectfully disagree with your dh. It's your duty as a fellow human being to worry about it. And I would consider it a duty to get involved.

[Dizzy Blond]

I think you have a good plan, too. I agree with the pp, you should get involved. Better a safe child than an unoffended mom.

[milkmommy]

I would have repeorted it. Its your duty I can understand its hard but still.
:hug though for having to witness that. and I hope this comes out right but I personaly could have no part of a church that treats its members (yes the children are members) like that. :hug

Deanna

[KingsDaughter76]

Oh my! :cry I am just so sad after reading your post! I cannot imagine seeing something like that on a little child! I wonder what his life must be like at home, is it full of saddness and crying??!! He must hurt so much from that bruise! Please say something to someone or do something... you may be this little boy's only hope... he might be crying out to God at night begging for someone to help him!! I know you are not sure what to do, but please do something. His parents may not understand that the way they are spanking is so harmful to their child's body. I know this is so hard for you!! *HUGS*

[TulipMama]

I will go to that class (they are still discussing the subject of spanking). I will ask the questions, of the pastor teaching the class, "What is the line between spanking and abuse? Do we leave bruises? And how 'bad' should these bruises be? How long should they last? What is OUR duty to following the law about NOT leaving bruises? What is our duty in leadership positions here at church in following the law that states that anybody in a leadership postion must report any suspicious bruising?"

I think this is an excellent idea.

And I think after the class, pray, breathe deep, and privately go to the pastor and say "The reason I asked is because of something I saw. . ."

[Quietspirit]

I think this is an excellent idea.

And I think after the class, pray, breathe deep, and privately go to the pastor and say "The reason I asked is because of something I saw. . ."

I agree. You need to report this, as hard as it is to do. :hug

[booboo]

I think you have a good plan. But please, report this.

As someone who was abused as a child - we've called the police many times but it didn't work (Daddy was a cop himself) please step in for this little boy.

I really think you or someone should express concerns about what's going on in your church. It sounds to me like that little boy isn't the only one who is a victim of abuse there. Are there any other non spanking parents? :(

[Teribear]

You need to check your state laws. I think in most states nursery workers are "mandatory reporters" meaning you have a legal as well as a moral obligation to report to DHS/CFS whatever it's called in your area such an obvious sign of child abuse. I realize this is uncomfortable but you can be held legally liable if you do not report it.

[chelsea]

Are you SURE it was from a spanking?
I would make sure it was from a spanking before reporting it, I think you should mention it to the parents and watch their reaction first. My son is biracial and has a birthmark on his lower back that is common among non-white babies, it has been there since birth (it is too late at night right now, my brain is not working and I can't remember what the birthmarks are called). Anyways, I'm always afraid someone will see it and assume I spank my child and so every public diaper change I'm like "Hey, did you see his birthmark?" to anyone standing close enough to see it. And I have had a few people admit that they wondered what it was before I told them. If the bruise you saw was from a spanking, then you need to decide where to go from there but make sure you know without a doubt before going further.

[Katherine]

And know that if you do report it to CPS it doesn't necessarily mean the parents are going to get hauled off to jail--that's the extreme version everyone imagines. (and I do know one family who had their kids temporarily removed b/c the 13yo son called in... at the time--in my pro-spanking days--I was on the parents' side, but in retrospect I have no idea how severely those children were being treated.. ? Maybe it was warranted?) But back to the subject...

My SIL spanks her soon-to-be step kids (she's lived with them and "mothered" them for about 5 years), and the doc noticed a small bruise on the girl at an appt. They asked if she spanked.. she said yes. CPS basically just came to the house, made sure it was clean and there was food in the ... talked to the kids privately, and cautioned her to use corporeal punishment carefully. From what she said, I'm not even sure she has a "file." But it did have the effect of making her look for other methods of discipline and being more reserved about corporeal punishment. ,

Just thought I'd share... you hear all the horror stories about CPS, but sometimes they influence families in a positive way without being invasive.

[chelsea]

it is too late at night right now, my brain is not working and I can't remember what the birthmarks are called
I just remembered, it is called a "mongolian spot".