Is punishment ever neccessary?

[milkmommy]

My mother (not my MIL ;) ) and I have been talking about this. My ways are diffrent from how we were raised but overall she supports me.. however I'm not sure how to answer this. DD is 2.5 their simpily isn't much "real trouble" she can get into but what about latter as a GD parent does that mean their is never a time to puniish?

Deanna

[Soliloquy]

No, I don't think it is. But, don't confuse punishment with natural consequences. As children get older and understand cause and effect, you should no longer shield them from all the consequences of their actions.

Here's an example: Suppose your 2-year-old got into your closet and smeared lipstick all over your favorite blouse. You wouldn't allow her to experience consequences because you realize you should've prevented her from accessing lipstick and your good clothes. It was a simple mistake and you'll try to make sure your lipstick gets put out of her reach and your closet door stays closed.

But, suppose your older daughter borrows a shirt of yours. A week later you find it under her bed, smeared with make-up. You ask her about it and discover that, while at a friend's house, they played with make-up. You're hurt and angry that she was so careless with one of your belongings. So, you tell her how you feel. You wish she would've taken off your shirt before doing something so messy. Also, once it had gotten dirty, you wish she had brought it to you right away so you could've gotten the stains out. You say that, right now, you're too hurt and angry to allow her to borrow any more things. She reminds you that you told her she could wear some of your jewelry to a family dinner this weekend. "When someone is careless with my belongings, it makes me not want to share. Right now I'm very angry and I don't feel like letting you borrow anything." She begs, "But Mom! Can't we please work something out?" You tell her, "I don't want to talk about this right now. I need time to think and cool off. When I'm ready to talk, I'll let you know. In the meantime, please think about what you can do to make this right."

That scenario is, in my opinion, letting her experience the natural consequences of her actions. Perhaps the two of you would work something out so she could wear the jewelry that weekend. But, maybe not. GBD doesn't mean you become a doormat, but you also don't dictate children do something unpleasant so "they'll think twice before doing that again!"

Punishment would sound something more like this:

"Is this my shirt? What's it doing under your bed and smeared with make-up? You WHAT? That's it! You're never borrowing anything of mine again. And you're doing the family laundry for the next two weeks."

Natural consquences teaches children that what they do/don't do affects others. When they make a mistake that hurts someone else, they learn how to make it right. It also helps them learn sympathy and empathy, because they learn how other people feel as a result of their actions.

This was longer than I anticipated. Does it make sense? :shrug

[milkmommy]

Yes it does and i helps a lot! Thanks :hearts

Deanna

[ArmsOfLove]

I don't believe there is ever time for a parent to punish--though there are certainly times that are appropriate for logical and natural consequences. Punishment is what will occur if your child breaks the law or does something as an adult that violates what you should be teaching them.

[mzietlow]

This is something I have been wondering myself since pursuing a gentler way of discipline.

So, you tell her how you feel. You wish she would've taken off your shirt before doing something so messy. Also, once it had gotten dirty, you wish she had brought it to you right away so you could've gotten the stains out. You say that, right now, you're too hurt and angry to allow her to borrow any more things. She reminds you that you told her she could wear some of your jewelry to a family dinner this weekend. "When someone is careless with my belongings, it makes me not want to share. Right now I'm very angry and I don't feel like letting you borrow anything." She begs, "But Mom! Can't we please work something out?" You tell her, "I don't want to talk about this right now. I need time to think and cool off. When I'm ready to talk, I'll let you know. In the meantime, please think about what you can do to make this right."

This example was very helpful to me. I try to dialogue with my dds this way, and often wonder if this is a right response. IMO, this scenario could be seen/felt as punishment. But what I am learning (*I think*) is that it all depends on the my mindset. Am I trying to punish or help? Am I lashing out or communicating? What is my tone of voice; what does my face look like?

Is this right, ladies?

[righteous mama]

Now in the case of the shirt being stained, I would have her do the laundry...not as a punishment but to teach her why I was upset...stains are difficult to remove. And maybe if she did the laundry she would appreciate the clothing more...kwim? I did my own laundry starting at about 10 and I learned to respect my clothes a lot more.

[crunchy christian]

I love the example given too!

I am also wondering though, would it be punishment if you required her to take money out of her allowence or something to have the blouse dry-cleaned? (if the makeup wasn't removed by washing)...

It kind of seems like punishment, but at the same time, I wonder if it is a logical consequence...along the reasoning that in the *real world* when you ruin someone's things or private property you are usually made to pay some kind of restitution...in other words, they wouldn't put you in jail for say, bumping someone' car, but you would have to pay for it...even if through the insurance company...

Things like that I am fuzzy on...

I maybe wouldn't do that the first time, but say it happened more than once (with the borrowing)...

...or just not let her borrow things again...?

I am glad I am still pregnant LOL ...maybe I will have things like this worked out by the time she is old enough to do things like that!!

[ArmsOfLove]

IMO, this scenario could be seen/felt as punishment. But what I am learning (*I think*) is that it all depends on the my mindset. Am I trying to punish or help? Am I lashing out or communicating? What is my tone of voice; what does my face look like? Kind of ;)

Punishment is adding something *more* to make them *feel it* and to try and make them feel bad with the idea that feeling bad is the only way they can learn.

With the blouse:

Logical consequences might include paying with their own money to dry clean it, doing the laundry to clean it, not borrowing your clothes the next time she asks, even buying you a new blouse if the stain won't come out. If you are worried about her being irresponsible and not sure if you want to loan her the blouse, or if it's the first time this is happening, it would be great to have a meeting and brainstorm together what will happen if the shirt is damaged.

Punishment would include things like no tv, grounding, no phone, no car, etc.

The issue isn't necessarily how they *feel* about it, but if they feel something is unfair I take that into consideration and evaluate it. At the very least I try to see it from their perspective--especially if it's the first time I'm having to deal with and respond to something. And if they think it's unfair then I might bring them into the problem solving process a bit more. But not liking what I'm doing doesn't mean I'm punishing.

[Soliloquy]

Now in the case of the shirt being stained, I would have her do the laundry...not as a punishment but to teach her why I was upset...stains are difficult to remove. And maybe if she did the laundry she would appreciate the clothing more...kwim? I did my own laundry starting at about 10 and I learned to respect my clothes a lot more.


I think having her wash the shirt is a way to make amends--which isn't punishment. Most kids will come up with this solution on their own--and I think it's important to give the child some time to think about what they can do to make amends. Kids are capable of coming up with these kinds of solution on their own--if we give them the chance. And, it teaches them that they are capable of making amends when they make a mistake. A friend isn't going to say, "You're doing my laundry for two weeks since you ruined my shirt!" A friend will say, "You ruined my shirt! I can't believe you! What kind of a friend are you?" And, if your child already has experience thinking of ways to make amends, they'll know to go into action, rather than lashing back "I'm a good friend! Who helped you study for the math quiz? Who helped you find your lost bracelet? You're the one who's a bad friend!" We have to remember that our children won't always be under our direction.

Punishment doesn't teach children what to do next after a mistake. It makes them passive, thinking that mistakes are automatically followed by a response from authority--all they need to do is wait for the punishment to be handed out. Life isn't like that--mistakes are made between equals, authority figures don't always "catch" everything, victims can't always speak up. Our children need to learn that it's up to them--even if no one else makes them--to make amends, if possible, and that we always love them, even when we're angry.

I also think we need to tell our kids (and spouses) how we're feeling. If we try to be cheerful all the time, we end up blowing our top and screaming, "That's the last straw!" when our family didn't know how we felt about the previous 200 "straws." If something really bugs you, I think we should tell our kids. It also helps them learn that everyone's different and has a different tolerance levels for things.

[TulipMama]

I really like the "window" diagram in Crystal's book, Biblical Parenting.

Crystal, do you have anything online with that illustration and description? It helped me a lot understanding natural and logical consequences, and guaging when to protect my children from the consequences of their behavior and when to help them experience it.

[ArmsOfLove]

I'm gonna try to get the window up on my site when I figure out some of my new programs :)