Is schedules, CIO, & punitive parenting REALLY the norm?

[Katydid]

Is this stuff really normal in most churches? I guess I have been blessed ( or oblivious :P ) not to have been exposed much to these parenting styles, as I have grown up in church my whole life. Now granted, Dobson was popular, and my mom read him, but I never felt like she took it to extremes (I was only spanked maybe once or twice)

I have just never even heard of a church offering parenting classes (punitive, or not), and reading in this forum makes me wonder if this is really what our churches have come to? Extending grace to everyone, except the most helpless among us or only when it is convienient for us? And teaching parents that this is what God wants? This is crazy to me! :banghead

Any thoughts?

[sadie]

I dont' think it necessarily is the norm. There are many churches that don't offer parenting classes, or that promote spanking, etc., but not extreme, Ezzo like stuff. But there are churches where the situation is really bad, and this is the forum to discuss it, so it seems really widespread if one only reads this forum. :)

[Gretchen]

I think it's "normal" in some churches, but I don't think I'd say most. Seems to be more prevalent in some denominations and regions of the country, while others are not affected by the punitive gurus.

FWIW, our church doesn't teach any parenting classes, and I can't think of anyone in our congregation that is following Ezzo, Pearl, etc.

Gretchen

[ArmsOfLove]

I see the programs prevalent in two primary groups of churches--very conservative churches that tend to be, in themselves more controlling and that draw more controlling types of people and non-denom churches that are very seeker friendly and want to offer *programs* for every stage. Outside of that it's word of mouth rave reviews that spread these ideas. :(

[Katydid]

so it seems really widespread if one only reads this forum. :)


That is probably true :P

[snlmama]

It's hard to tell. I think perhaps you hear about it on here so much b/c it's the people who do have problems and issues who post, NOT the people who are really happy w/ their situation.

I occassionally post about issues w/ friends who do Ezzo, but actually only 2 of them (now one b/c the other moved) go to my church. And Ezzo is not the norm there, I just have a high level of interaction w/ these two moms b/c our kids are the same age. When one of them asked the church to do the Ezzo parenting class it was met w/ such a widespread negative response that the Children's Minister didn't even bother to look into it more than reading their website (and confessing to me that she thought Ezzo's ideas sounded "silly." - that was based on *his* website, not Ezzo.info, btw. :mrgreen)

I do think CIO is pretty much the norm in general in America, but most people I know do it when they are older, like about 8-9 months old, not w/ newborns like I'm always reading about on here. Even among parents who are really AP with newborns, there is a lot of CIO. Somewhere along the line they decide they're tired and do CIO. :/ But, I know enough people at my church who say their kids didn't sleep thru the night until they were over a year old to know that it's more like 50/50 there and not a majority.
That said, at my church, I've only known two people who did Ezzo and they used the "Babywise" version, not the church version, so milder, but still Ezzo. :rolleyes And, while our church library has a Dobson book in it "The Strong-Willed Child," when dh checked it out and one of the older moms saw him w/ it she gave him a little "speech" about how it really wasn't that great of the book and she'd only follow the advice in it for an *extremely* out of control child, not our just really spirited one. :lol We did read thru it b/c it's what my bro. and sil swear by it :( and we wanted to know what was in it, but we really weren't that interested in it to start w/.

Punishment is likely the norm b/c that's what *most* people grew up w/ and what they know. Unless they look for something else (and even sometimes when we do), they fall into the learned childhood patterns of parent-child interaction.

[erinee]

My church doesn't necessarily endorse any method of parenting but has offered Ezzo in the past (7 years ago). No one was really pressured to go, though, and it wasn't really endoresed by the church as a whole. DH & I went to a parenting class where he advocated spanking with a belt. There were only a couple other people there, though, and it wasn't something the church really endorsed or said much about. The pastors don't preach parenting methods from the pulpit or the rightness or wrongness of spanking. Most moms I know there spank occasionally, some frequently, and there are a couple of families that I am fairly certain use Pearl and Tripp, but more are along the Dobson line of thinking and use spanking in limited circumstances. I don't know anyone besides myself who is totally opposed to spanking. Our church library has no Ezzo, Tripp, or Pearl books but does have Dobson. Then again, they also have "How To Really Love Your Child," Sears' Christian Parenting (although it's an older edition that seems to support spanking with a switch in limited circumstances :eek), and some other positive parenting books. So I guess they leave a lot of room for making up your own mind, but most people have a fairly mainstream approach to discipline with a few on either end of the spectrum.

[sadie]

I agree with you, I think the use of punishment and an adversarial parent-child relationship is very mainstream, snlmama. :(

[Sanveann]

I'm Catholic and don't know anyone at my parish (or any parish I've gone to) who is a Pearl/Ezzo devotee.

[tui_song]

Here in NZ spanking/smacking is frowned upon in the mainstream parenting organisations etc. However I know a lot of people who do it, though only ocasionally. There has been talk of banning smacking, and some Christians have campaigned against it. :rolleyes :hissyfit

I know of at least one large church which has the GKGW course - one in Auckland which my cousin attends. :( She has been Ezzoing her children, and her two year old has definitely been affected by it. It makes me so sad, because I know my cousin has the best intentions. They go to a very controlling, money-hungry church. :cry

The church we attend does not promote smacking. They have a playgroup (which is very popular in the community) which strongly stipulates 'No Hitting' and that means adults as well as kids. :)

[MarynMunchkins]

IME, the church is very punitive, but don't follow one particular person. Of course, this is Southern Baptist in the midst of the Bible Belt, so ways of thinking are a little slow. ;)

[Lantern Light Mama]

I'm in the Bible Belt Southern Baptist part of the U.S. too, sigh. It can be pretty obvious here that sometimes you are expected to spank your kids. But I run across another few moms and dads here and there who practice gentle discipline, like us, and it gives me hope. :heart

[cklewis]

FTR, when I was doing my research on Ezzo in grad school, Catholics, Mormons, and your run-of-the-mill evangelical protestant churches were holding GKGW classes. Granted, that was 5 years ago, and maybe the word has gotten out (thanks to so many here!), but it is pretty ecumenical.

My church doesn't promote Ezzo per se, but I do here it discussed in the Mother's Room and such. The most legalistic church in town doesn't hold classes officially, but the one set of GKGW teachers that I know personally attend there. But that's just an odd Stepford-wives kind of experience when you talk with anyone from there.

C

[ArmsOfLove]

I believe it's not allowed to be taught in Catholic churches because they researched it and it's not compatible with their theology. They can't stop Catholics from taking the classes, but they don't offer them or endorse them.

[Dizzy Blond]

Its not the norm in my church which is non-denom. My former pastor never spanked, just used time-outs. Not sure of our current pastor or asst pastor, but couldn't see them spanking either. Their kids (mostly teenagers) are way too much their own individuals to have had controlling parents.

[cklewis]

I believe it's not allowed to be taught in Catholic churches because they researched it and it's not compatible with their theology. They can't stop Catholics from taking the classes, but they don't offer them or endorse them.


:nak

Just out of curiousity, do you know when this conclusion was made? I'd just love to know. . . . :read

C

[CelticJourney]

Camille - I dont' have the answer to that questions, but there is an article entitled 'Neo-evalizing the Catholic Family with an Alien Gospel' at Ezzo.info. I wonder if they or the author might have some info on the Catholic Churches decision.

[Sanveann]

This article goes into the theological problems Catholics have with Ezzo: http://www.ccli.org/parenting/1gfi.shtml

[cklewis]

This article goes into the theological problems Catholics have with Ezzo: http://www.ccli.org/parenting/1gfi.shtml

And their arguments (with which ITA, no doubt!!!) are very, very similar to many Prot objectors too. But it reminds me of reading Dr. Sears or Ezzo.info.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'll admit it. And this may be a completely different thread. But I get the impression that when it comes to the day-to-day living out your Christian walk, there's as much diversity in a "unified" RCC as in the peppered Protestant denominations -- at least in this country. It may not be an official church thing. It may not be an official parish or diocese thing. But as I look around, it seems as impossible to say that "every Roman Catholic does X" as it is to say "every Protestant does X."

Maybe this is old news for everyone else. :shrug I guess I just get uncomfortable with blanket statements about any group.

There's a principle in communication theory that the more you proclaim a group's singularity/unity, the more diverse they become. And the more you proclaim their diversity, the more unified/singular they become. I kinda wonder if that may be at work here. . . .

:think

C

[Sanveann]

I don't think anybody has said that every Catholic does X. One can say that the RCC teaches X, and that certainly can be correct. And one can also say, "I don't know any Catholics who do X" and still be correct. It doesn't mean NO Catholics do X.

And while there are certainly Catholics who disagree with the Church on some points of doctrine or some teachings, I would say that overall, the body of the RCC has far more in common with each other than, say, Episcopalians have in common with the Assemblies of God.

I am sure that there ARE Catholics out there who use Ezzo or the Pearls. But in my experience, it is not ingrained into church culture like it is in some Protestant denominations or parishes. I have never heard a priest recommend Ezzo from the pulpit. I have never seen children switched or spanked in church. I have never heard a Catholic mama say that her baby's crying is his "sin nature."

[cklewis]

I don't think anybody has said that every Catholic does X. One can say that the RCC teaches X, and that certainly can be correct. And one can also say, "I don't know any Catholics who do X" and still be correct. It doesn't mean NO Catholics do X.

And while there are certainly Catholics who disagree with the Church on some points of doctrine or some teachings, I would say that overall, the body of the RCC has far more in common with each other than, say, Episcopalians have more in common with the Assemblies of God.


What are you doing up this early, Sanveann? ;) I don't know what I'm doing here this early either. :rolleyes

You may be right about the unity. :shrug I really don't know. But just to clarify. . . . I was just talking about the "day-to-day living out your Christian walk" diversity, not the top-down teaching/doctrine. I think that we Protestants perceive a singularity that just isn't there. That's all. I'm not critiquing any statement per se (not consciously anyway :shrug ), but more talking about how I don't think we on the outside of the RCC really get it.

There's a long, long history of the poisonous pedagogy (to use Alice Miller's phrase) that comes not just from conservative Evangelical Protestants. That's mostly what I'm after.

:hug

C

[Sanveann]

OK, I see what you mean :)

Btw, I'm in the Eastern Time Zone, so it's 7:20 a.m. here ... not too early! :cool

[cklewis]

Btw, I'm in the Eastern Time Zone, so it's 7:20 a.m. here ... not too early! :cool


Yeah, me too. .. . It just feels really early in my house because I'm the only one up. . . . I think you're in Michigan, yes?

C

[Sanveann]

Yup! Gotta start getting ready for work soon. *Sigh*

[Lantern Light Mama]

Did you all have a good breafast? :lol :cup

[CelticJourney]

:lol Talk about a thread taking a turn in direction. :D

I agree with Camille that in the day-to-day, we can't generalize. I am glad, though, that the removal of GKGW from the church curriculum could be done 'in bulk' in the more hierarchic churchs, taking away some of Ezzo's authority - it reduces the numbers in the fight.

[KingsDaughter76]

I think it is pretty accepted here where I am at... our pastor even proudly proclaimed that if he ever had one of those children come to his house from that nanny show that they would act up once and only once....and then never again with him in control... (referring to spanking them!) The whole congregation laughed and amen'd in agreement... I just felt sick....He has preached the pros of "biblical" spanking and such a couple other times too... most people I know around here spank and I feel so odd sometimes.. :rolleyes

[SandKsmama]

I've never been to a single church where either the pastor himself, or the greater majority of the parishioners didn't advocate some type of punitive parenting. In fact, I know very very few people who don't spank at all. The scheduling and CIO is more sporadic, thankfully. But Ezzo is still widespread down here...I've seen advertisements for classes in all different kinds of churches.

Amanda

[Kaz]

Punishment is likely the norm b/c that's what *most* people grew up w/ and what they know. Unless they look for something else (and even sometimes when we do), they fall into the learned childhood patterns of parent-child interaction.


I agree.

In the UK spanking which leaves bruising is illegal. Generally its frowned on, but 'baby-training' is popular eg Gina Ford.

My church seems a typical reflection of these trends. Highly punitive parenting is not common, but there's a high prevalence of people who think children will be spoiled if you don't win the battle of wills with them.

Oh, and I sat next to a guy a church the other week who looked at my dd (alert and studying him) and he said 'I wonder what she's thinking..well nothing I expect..after all babies are much like dogs or cats'. He has 3 children of his own too. How could he be so blind?

[shilohmm]

Oh, and I sat next to a guy a church the other week who looked at my dd (alert and studying him) and he said 'I wonder what she's thinking..well nothing I expect..after all babies are much like dogs or cats'. He has 3 children of his own too. How could he be so blind?


'Tis a puzzlement. Is he defining thought and being capable of logical reasoning and drawing conclusions and stuff? Many kids don't do that well until they hit adolescence. For that matter, I've known MENSA members who were none-too-good at that sort of thing, or if they were, they sure weren't applying it to their everyday lives. ;)

After three kids I'd think most parents would have clued into the fact that kids are born different, and part of this difference comes from the structure of their brains (interverts have an over-active RAS and extraverts have an under-active RAS, for instance). I wonder if "visual thinkers" are more able to understand the idea of a baby's thought processes than people who process everything verbally? I think even the baby in the womb is thinking, in the sense of making connections and very, very basic analysis. Of course a lot of it is instinct, but my impression is that even newborns can make associations - "When this happens, it's followed by something I Don't Like." versus "This means I'm going to feel better soon." My infants that didn't like being wet (and I've had both types) learned pretty quick that being put on the changing table means they're going to be changed, and they'd quit crying even though they hadn't been changed yet, for instance.

Mind you, the doctor who admitted my eldest daughter after she'd been severely burned didn't even believe that infants feel pain (my daughter was three and he wasn't going to give her pain meds! :wow :hissyfit ). So some people can blind themselves to an incredible level. :(

Sheryl

[Kaz]

Mind you, the doctor who admitted my eldest daughter after she'd been severely burned didn't even believe that infants feel pain (my daughter was three and he wasn't going to give her pain meds! :wow :hissyfit ). So some people can blind themselves to an incredible level.

that's completely outrageous!! :mad