helping to sleep the supernanny way

[greenemama]

the supernanny is on and i just watched the bedtime routine they always seem to employ with the 2-3 yo crowd. it's not CIO in the traditional "leave the baby alone in his dark room until he falls asleep" way, but it's not the "rock them or nurse them until they pass out" way, either. :/

what are your feelings on nanny jo's methods here? on the one hand, the child feels secure because mom is nearby. or at least he's supposed to feel secure. on the other hand, he's screaming for his mommy and she's not meeting his need. or are they needs?

are these just firm boundaries?

we do something similar some nights. dh holds henry in a bear hug of sorts and falls asleep. he starts out pretending to sleep while henry is poking at him and talking to him, trying to get his attention. eventually henry falls asleep, too. but really he was laying there and his requests for attention or conversation were ignored. this seems different than the supernanny way in that he's been cuddled to sleep.

does anyone help their children sleep in their own beds in this way? or a variation?

if this is too controversial a topic for this forum, i apologize. :doh

[snlmama]

I have mixed feelings about Supernanny's way of handling it. I don't really see it as wrong to allow some crying w/ the parent there and do see it as different from CIO alone in a room, particularly w/ older children. This approach has and does work best for my youngest (although he rarely if ever has cried when we try to put him down) who has always been a decent sleeper, but has some brief periods of fighting sleep.
I do have a problem w/ her "one size fits all" approach to sleep issues. :/ :rolleyes Dh and I always laugh b/c we tried similar methods w/ our oldest and they didn't help at all. :shrug He still needs us to lie down w/ him (he's 5 1/2) and at 2-3 years old, we did try the old sit in the room w/ him while he falls asleep and it literally took *hours* to do it that way. Which would be fine for a week or so. But, 3, 4, 5 weeks later you give up and do whatever it takes to make it go faster - rock, sing, dance, watch TV..... The idea is to make bedtime easy, NOT sit in their room for 3 hours or more on a nightly basis. ;) :rolleyes
I didn't see tonight's episode, but I'm guessing it was the same approach I've seen 3 or so times on that show?

[ArmsOfLove]

and she's not meeting his need. or are they needs?

are these just firm boundaries? I haven't watched tonight's shows yet so I might come back and change my answer ;) :lol But I think this is what it boils down to.

I don't believe in one-size parenting so I don't believe this is a method for every parent and every child and every home. I do believe it is appropriate sometimes.

The method I've seen her use is the walking them back to the room and closing the door on them. This sounds like it might be different?

I do believe in starting earlier--when my children are babies I mother them to sleep. Some have fallen asleep on the breast, some sleep better after stopping nursing and being patted or just cuddling. Eventually they get verbal and in toddlerhood I teach them how to go to sleep. "You go to sleep by being still, closing your eyes, stopping your mouth, breathing calmly, and letting sleep happen." I teach them how to relax their muscles. I am there if they wake in their sleep. As they get older I encourage them to go lay down when they are tired and offer the verbal reminders of relaxing, etc. Eventually they can lay down anywhere and go to sleep if they are tired :)

At some point I imagine my children will sleep in their own rooms. ;) If I've told an older child to go to sleep and they keep coming out of the room I'd not hesitate simply returning them to the room.

I guess what it comes down to is IF what the child really needs is boundaries then meeting the boundaries might not look like meeting all the wants they are yelling are needs :)

[snlmama]

The method I've seen her use is the walking them back to the room and closing the door on them. This sounds like it might be different?
The one I have seen the parent stays in the room and sits in a chair and keeps putting the child back in bed and ignores his cries and requests for stuff. Not horrible, but not for everyone. I hadn't seen her do any other "method," so at least she tries more than one. :)

[ArmsOfLove]

Okay . . . here's what I would have done differently if getting him to sleep in the crib was the goal. "I will sit here next to the crib and hold your hand until you fall asleep. If you get up or try and leave the room I will not sit here." If they got up I'd leave the room and come back when they called for me and remind them of the rule. I don't see the need to totally ignore the child :( :shrug What she did *worked* but I don't think it was necessary.

[4blessings]

Okay . . . here's what I would have done differently if getting him to sleep in the crib was the goal. "I will sit here next to the crib and hold your hand until you fall asleep. If you get up or try and leave the room I will not sit here." If they got up I'd leave the room and come back when they called for me and remind them of the rule.

This is exactly what we did with our children when they were learning to sleep in their own room. Worked like a charm!

[greenemama]

so what are the signs that your toddler/child is ready to stop nursing to sleep or being held to sleep and start learning to relax and put himself to sleep?

[BluegrassMama]

nak

I was coming to post on this too! :lol If I were a child and my mama sat in the room, head down, ignoring me...that would Freak.Me.Out. I think its creepy.

OTOH I don't believe in 3 hour fights at bedtime either!

Thought I'd throw out what we do. I nurse/rock/sing to sleep for about a year, and then nurse/rock/sing/lay down with them til about 18 months. At that age I start sitting on or by the bed, patting, singing, shushing, til they go to sleep. When daddy puts him to bed, he sits on the bed and plays the guitar. Even infants have fallen asleep to that! Or if dh is very tired he just climbs in with him and goes to sleep! (dark, quiet house)...sleeping, snuggling daddy is comforting and friendly. Statue daddy would not be (IMHO). Over the next year or so, I sit in a rocker in the bedroom, and rock the current baby and sing everyone to sleep. They can all see and hear me, I look at them and smile, but I don't let them talk, sit up, or get out of bed. Over many months I move the rocker farther away, to the hallway, then out of sight. By this time they are 3 or older and know how bedtime works, and are used to staying in their beds. So I just hover around the bedroom hallway, putting laundry away or cleaning the bathroom, so they know I'm there and I can deal with them immediately if there's a problem.

Most of our children have climbed into our bed halfway thru the night. We allow that until about age 3.5 or 4. Then we get up and put them back to bed, with kisses and pats and tucking in.

The older ones are 4, 6, and 8 and have no sleep problems at all.

oh, and we don't do cribs. Its family bed, then bed with sibling, then twin bed alone (shared bedrooms).

I love hearing about others' bedtime solutions; thought I'd share ours! :)

[milkmommy]

so what are the signs that your toddler/child is ready to stop nursing to sleep or being held to sleep and start learning to relax and put himself to sleep?

Fo mine it was when nurseing or rocking simpily stopped working and even made her more hyper.It because clear we needed a diffrent way. She was around 9 months

Deanna

[milkmommy]

nak

I was coming to post on this too! :lol If I were a child and my mama sat in the room, head down, ignoring me...that would Freak.Me.Out. I think its creepy.

ITTA :(

Deanna

[greenemama]

wow! :spit i don't know -- maybe we're too permissive about bedtime. there are nights it takes an hour to help henry to sleep. he's almost three. normally i nurse and if he starts goofing around dh comes and bear hugs him to sleep. i'm really interested in helping him go to sleep in his room without all of the hands on help. do you do this for naps, too? how long does it take before they arent' fighting you about it all of the time? i mean in hours per night and then in days or weeks of doing it. i guess i thought that everyone did it the way we do it. :O

[BluegrassMama]

Mollie, I think it often took about an hour for the 2-3 yo's! I remember singing myself hoarse. For my boys, if it consistently was taking an hour, I would try to up the outdoor activity during the day. Also mine didn't have TV or sugar during those years, and I really think it helped!

For naps I had them all sleep in the living room on couches and loveseats or the floor...a change of scenery, it was daylight, etc. Still sang or read (low, slow reading)

I don't remember them ever fighting me about it; even the high-needs son. My phrase has always been, "mama said lay down." or "mama said time for nigh-night".....ds #2 was the start of that. If I said, "Do whatever" it was like he couldn't understand it. But if I say, "Mama said (x)" he believes me :shrug

FWIW I don't think you're permissive! I always think you're a great mom :) None of mine could just "go to bed" on their own until age 3.5. I remember my mother thinking it sweet but insane that I really would sit there for 30-45 minutes for a 2-year-old!

[greenemama]

most nights it takes about half an hour. but that's with a long nursing. i'm okay with that. there are nights i want to scream, but everyone has those, right? :O
so when they're ready to go to bed on their own, say 3.5 in your case (our amy4duclimer, right? :O) were they more prepared for that because they had been shushed and sung and read to sleep, rather than nursed to sleep? :hkiss not trying to be difficult. :)

[BluegrassMama]

I see your :hkiss and I raise you :cookie

I nurse to sleep as long as the baby will; none nursed longer than 18 months. But by 12 months I've added shushing and singing, and if baby cooperates I see if they'll nurse and then actually go to sleep in the bed or just rocking (if baby wants to nurse to sleep, he gets to! But I try to transition it, so when he weans he'll have other comfort measures)

The singing and shushing :lol are from the earliest memory. I think that does help tremendously. Occasionally the 8-year-old has a lot on his mind and can't sleep! If I sit on the edge of his bed and sing Winnie-the-Pooh he goes right to sleep :P

I think you've got a good thing going there, if it only takes half an hour most nights! Especially if that's half hour of daddy hugging him :heart

T is giving me a run for my money. He's 8 months old, and I'm desperately trying to remember to do the same things with him that I did for the other 3. I don't remember the others being in my arms this much (read, 24 hours a day) but dh says they were. One good thing, Toby's already started to like rocking to sleep (after nursing of course) but he's not as oral as 2 of my boys were. And he's all about motion (rocking, swinging, being carried around) I think I'll have a hard time getting him to go to bed and just lie there! I haven't even tried it yet :blush I haven't wanted to 'start over' at bedtime by him waking up upset to be in bed (I know, I'm a chicken)

[Joanne]

I think the no eye contact "thing" is weird. But the rest, I agree with. I'd be more passive but firm. I'd bring a book and a chair and be otherwise engaged while my child transitioned to sleep. And my goal would be for that child to learn to "go to bed" without arguement, or getting up again.

Some kids honor a seemingly natural continuum of nursing and rocking to sleep until they don't need to anymore and bedtime is not an issue.

Some kids don't. Some kids need firmly imposed limits. Some kids take interaction (which could be where Nanny is coming from on the eye contact thing) to mean that the bedtime rule is negotiable.

I don't think being in the room with a 2 yo is CIO.

[Katherine]

RE: the supernanny thing. There's a difference between sitting in the room and *limiting* interaction with your child (refusing to chit chat, being involved in a book, reminding them to rest, or stating the rules "lie still and be quite") versus sitting in a room and emphatically REFUSING to interact with them on any level, including eye contact and physical contact. What's the point of being in there? Your presence is not reassuring to the child if you are just a piece of furniture--intentionally disconnecting and detaching yourself to the utmost degree. Imagine how freaked out we would feel if someone we trusted acted in such a calculating and bizarre way... it's like playing mind games, IMO. If you have a child that truly cannot handle ANY stimulation including your presence, then don't stay... just check in on him periodically. If my ds is having a hard time disconnecting socially, I give him another opportunity to say what's on his mind and then we count down from 10.. we count out loud together, getting quieter with each number... After that there is no more conversation.

i'm really interested in helping him go to sleep in his room without all of the hands on help.

I really think a lot depends on YOUR child, and of course on your own limits.. what you and dh are willing to do or not do... also factors like the size of your family, work schedules, and so on will obviously affect the decisions you make regarding how you parent your child to sleep.

We've experienced 2 strange and unexpected changes in the last couple of weeks. My 3.5 yo, who has always been die-hard about sleeping with me--plastered up against me in most cases--has suddenly decided to start sleeping on the floor mat in my room. :wow You could have knocked me down with a feather. I thought we'd have to pry him out of "the big bed" just to send him off to college. :laughtears

The other thing is that my 19 month old, who has never to my memory gone to sleep without being either nursed down, walked/bounced, carried or worn down in a sling, (ok, well, there have been a few times he's snuggled up with somebody and fell asleep watching tv or something) went upstairs at naptime, picked out a "baby" when I prompted him, got in bed when I told him to, pulled the covers up, asked for a pillow, and went to sleep without a peep while I sat in the corner and sang to him. Again... I was :wow :eek

I used to secretly doubt that MY kids really would go to sleep on their own "when they were ready" or maybe I just thought they would never be ready.. :lol I don't necessarily expect that this will continue indefinitely without interruption. :shifty BUT, I have more faith now in the process of kids naturally moving on to independence when they are ready.

My younger son has been through the motions of picking out a stuffed animal and lying down in bed in his own room, but he usually just stays for a minute or two, and then either laughs or cries and wants to come nurse/hold or get in Mommy's bed. I guess going through the motions occasionally did "sink in" though, and today he was ready to try it. :shrug

My older son, though.. no WAY would he have done that... especially not at 19 months, and not for a long time afterward. ds1 is way more intense and has always been "night-time needy" and a very restless/light sleeper. ds2 is much MUCH more verbal than ds1 was at this age, and I think that has a tremendous lot to do with it, too.

My experience has been that if I think they might be ready for a change, or if I think I'm ready for a change, we try it out. If the new way just doesn't work, I back off and know that it's just not time yet. If I'm pushing for change too early due to my own frustration, that typically becomes obvious right away, and then I have a renewed sense of why I'm being patient and doing what I'm doing to begin with. :)

[Oliveshoots]

wow...you are all making some excellent points here. I too struggled with that episode. i really did not like the no eye-contact thing.

I really love Crystal's suggestion about holding their hand, and making it clear that if they get out of bed, you will not sit there. At what age does this begin to make sense to them? I just don't think my ds would "get it" yet, but maybe I'm not giving him enough credit?

Bluegrass mama, you have this sleep thing down to a science! I think that is WONDERFUL!! I like your logical flow from family bed to sibling bed to individual bed, but with siblings still in the room.

I love that you all actually put effort into your sleep solutions. And time. I get so SICK of these "instant" quick fixes that I see on TV, hear from friends, and read in other books. Parenting really is work (fun work, of course) and helping a child to sleep is part of that job.

You ladies are wonderful and I learn so much from you!

I still lay down with ds (he's 20 mos)....now my dd is a different story, most nights I just lay her in her crib with her passy and her little music/light show running, and while I'm getting ds ready for bed, she is winding down and before I know it she is out! Sooooo different from ds. He has come a LONG way since he was an infant. I used to have to walk/rock/sing/run water/bounce on the bed (some of you may rememember me mentioning all this before on teh old boards). But I definitely see a process and a progression from where we were sleep-wise at 6 mos. and where we are now. He at least sleeps through the night, although sometimes if he's hot or needs a dipe change he will fuss, but falls right back to sleep. It takes about 45 minutes for him to go to sleep with me laying with him. Occasionally, he will be out in about 5-10 minutes. We probably won't be able to put him in his own bed until we get a house. Right now, all the beds are taken, and he is with me.

I will be sure to use many of the suggestions here when the time comes :)

Mollie, i'm glad to know my dh is not the only one that sometimes has to do a bear-hug to get ds to sleep. how does that go when he does it?

[greenemama]

a few minutes of crying half of the time. i agree with joanne -- i don't think it's CIO with a 2 yo and a parent nearby, tho, so it may not be for everyone. sometimes dh thinks henry needs me instead of him -- we just kind of read the kind of crying henry's doing. is he just tired and complaining? is he really needing me? it all depends.

[MarynMunchkins]

Well, Doug and Ana lie down in their room together and go to sleep. :shrug I picked a bedtime based on when they naturally crash ;) and tuck them in. Sometimes we sing a song or read a story, but usually they lie down and go to sleep. When they were 2-3, I sang 2-3 songs to them and than sat for 5 minutes on the edge of the bed. Than I'd make some excuse about having to go to the bathroom ;) and leave. Usually they'd be asleep when I got back.

Colin nurses before bedtime, and than I lie him down in his crib. I turn on his Fisher Price Aquarium thingie ( I :heart that thing!) and cover him up. He usually starts crying. I stand next to the crib until he stops, and than take a step back. If he starts crying again, I wait where I am until he stops. I watch him the whole time, and will sshh if he needs it. I keep taking steps backwards until I'm out of the room. It usually only takes 5 minutes. He stopped nursing to sleep at about 14 months. :)

[Heather Micaela]

gee in my family Dh lays down w/ both kids till they fall asleep. DS is 3.5 ans will sleep all night. DD is 20 mos and joins our bed on her own halfway through the night.

I thought this was fine - not permissive :shrug

[Irene]

I turn on his Fisher Price Aquarium thingie ( I that thing!) thats so funny dh and i were just talking the other day about that thing and how we always laugh at the commercials... like any kid actually falls asleep with that thing! :shifty :lol hmmm I guess they do, our kids just have always jumped up and wanted to play with it/attack the fish etc :lol

Heather Micaela, I think every family is different, its what works for your family and thats great :D Dh still rocks dd to sleep at night and I nurse ds, 14 months. nursing to sleep doesnt bother me, its the all night nursing that does :neutral I dont think we are being permissive for rocking her to sleep- it works and she sleeps and it gives good cuddle time for them :heart

[Gretchen]

I agree with Joanne. The no eye contact thing seems extreme, but I am willing to bet it is necessary for some kids (not all or most, but a few). Based on how the child in the Supernanny episode reacted to the toy in his crib, I feel pretty comfortable that the approach they took was a good one. They also said a couple of times it was taking hours for him to fall asleep on the couch (before Supernanny came) so it sounds like snuggling with Mom wasn't working either.

I think that if nursing/rocking/snuggling your child to sleep is working, keep doing it! I still lay down with my 4.5 year old every night. But if it's not, to quote Joanne, I don't think being in the room with a 2 yo is CIO.

Gretchen