this is new for me

[Irene]

well, first, I am glad that my dd is talking more- thats a good thing :mrgreen
so heres what is going on.

I am trying to pick up and tell dd "go pick up your dolls and put them in their bag" she goes over there and i guess feels overwhelmed, so I said, "okay, the clothes go in this pocket, start with the red dress" and she walks away and crosses her arms and says "Im mad". (this is a good thing- shes expressing herself- with words! :)) so I kinda dont know what to do at this point and say "you are mad" and she says "yeah, paint" I say "you want to paint". "yeah, mad" so I say "you can paint when you are done picking up the dolls" she walks off and plays with something else, I bring her back to the dolls and try to guide her again. she once again says shes mad. I say "you can sit there and be mad, and when you are done, pick up the dolls and then you can paint"

then she runs off and plays with something else like she doesnt care about painting at all. So I said "okay, you can sit in the chair (comfort chair) until you are ready to cooperate" she sits there for about 2 minutes and runs off and plays with something else. GRRR. okay, I know what to do when shes having fits and carrying on but when shes being calm about it all :lol Im lost. :blush I feel like shes "getting away" with it. but then, she doesnt seem to care about when/then either. IM trying to keep it positive.

Do I just stay with her in the chair until she is ready to cooperate so she cant get up? I cant force her to pick up. does it really matter- thats when I feel permissive.... I feel like, oh whatever, I dont really care that the dolls are sitting there.... I dont know..... but I do want her to know I mean business. I dont know how to "make it happen" I was getting off my butt and bringing her back... but I cant *make* her do it.
I sound like a mess dont I? :blush

[CJ]

I can totally relate! I'm looking forward to people's responses. When I'm in that situation, I find myself resorting to ultimatums and becoming very punitive. If I offer to "help" clean up, I end up doing all of it and becoming resentful or angry.

[Joanne]

I think you are using the comfort chair as a cozy, comfortable punishment. :/

I wouldn't use a time out in this case. In this case, the concern is that a 3 yo needs to help clean up. I know not everyone is comfortable with this, but *I* would take their hand and guide them in cleaning up.

Another way is trying "As soon as". "As soon as the red clothes are put away, you can paint". But everything would be on hold until my child particpated, age appropriately, in clean up.

It also helps to have clean up times be part of a predictable routine.

[Irene]

I think you are using the comfort chair as a cozy, comfortable punishment :think hmmm okay. not like it worked anyway cuz she wouldnt sit :lol

Another way is trying "As soon as". "As soon as the red clothes are put away, you can paint". But everything would be on hold until my child particpated, age appropriately, in clean up.


this is what I was doing but she seemed to lose interest in the painting.
I was putting everything on hold and it was making me increasingly more angry and I felt like it was becoming a power struggle and I thought this is ridiculous to go through this for 30 minutes over her mess.

clean up is routine and thats what we were doing- routine pick up before dinner.

[Quietspirit]

Irene,

That is where, the first time she runs off to do something other than clean up, you go to her and gently but firmly "assist" her in cleaning up. She probably won't like it but she is learning (gently) that your words mean something. And that she must do what you've said first before she can go do her own thing. ;)

In my home, it would look something like this:

"It is time to clean up. Please put the doll clothes in the red bucket." (said with my hand on her arm to tactilely cue her as well as orally cue her) I'd probably be handing her a doll outfit as I spoke

Her: "I'm mad"

Me: "Time to put the doll clothes in the bucket."

Her: walking off

Me: Calmly walking to her, guiding her hand to the bucket with the doll outfit while saying "It is time to put the doll clothes away. I will help you"

[jujubnme]

I really think you're on the right track with reflecting feelings, bringing her back to the dolls and guiding her. How do you think she might have reacted if you reflected on her feeling overwhelmed? "This looks like a lot to put away, doesn't it. I know you can do it, and I'll be right here to help. Let's start with the red dress." Or, make it playful, pretending that the doll wants to put her clothes away so they don't get wrinkled... You could put one in a wrong place and have the doll get upset (in a silly way) that it's not being put away correctly. Just some thoughts :) :O.

[Irene]

okay qs, thats what I was doing over and over and over (because I knew she needed to know my words meant something) until I finally put her in the chair (which I guess was wrong :( ) because I was getting frsutrated. I was taking her hand and putting clothes in it and saying, here, put it in the pocket.

I get frustrated with "helping" I guess. Maybe thats what my problem is... I feel like helping = mom will do it for me :neutral :hissyfit

you are right juju about being playful. I always forget that one :blush I want her to do it so I can continue to pick up the rest of the room :blush

[ArmsOfLove]

But everything would be on hold until my child particpated, age appropriately, in clean up.
I wanted to agree with this statement from Joanne.

And one observation related to it . . . I get the feeling that painting became sort of a bribe/reward to get her to clean up. She decided it wasn't worth it and that's why she moved on to something else. I think what needed to be emphasized was "you will help clean up the dolls" and then you may do whatever you're going to do next ;)

[Joanne]

I get frustrated with "helping" I guess. Maybe thats what my problem is... I feel like helping = mom will do it for me

I understand. I felt that way, too. More so with my first than my youngest.

Children are self centered and lack impulse control and lack the ability to happily delay gratification. Years 0-18 are designed to build the skills needed to grow out of self centeredness, employ impulse control and delay graification.

As I type, I'm eating chili, drinking a diet soda and am surounded by books, toys, administrative stuff and general mess. I wanted the chili more than I wanted to clean. I wanted the chili more than I wanted to lose weight. I'll be 39 next Friday. I'm still developing the traits mentioned above.

She's 3; she'll need your help for a long time to come. It seemed when my little ones were little that the "helping" stage would never end. The truth is that they are 10, 8 and 6. I've been able to tell them "clean up" for years and they've done it independently. But they need help with other stuff now.

Your job is to set a age appropriate, reasonable standard and provide the structure, support and assistance needed so she can meet that standard at increasing levels of autonomy.

[Irene]

She's 3; she'll need your help for a long time to come. It seemed when my little ones were little that the "helping" stage would never end. The truth is that they are 10, 8 and 6. I've been able to tell them "clean up" for years and they've done it independently. But they need help with other stuff now.

Your job is to set a age appropriate, reasonable standard and provide the structure, support and assistance needed so she can meet that standard at increasing levels of autonomy.



thanks :heart its hard to remember that I guess :blush

And one observation related to it . . . I get the feeling that painting became sort of a bribe/reward to get her to clean up. She decided it wasn't worth it and that's why she moved on to something else. I think what needed to be emphasized was "you will help clean up the dolls" and then you may do whatever you're going to do next :/ I dont think so. maybe its just the way Im not able to quite express myself here. she was begging to paint and well, there was a mess on the table- she *couldnt* paint until she picked up her things off the table. I usually let her have a quiet activity (painting) while I make dinner. I thought we were supposed to make when/then and as soon as statements to help them out. :shrug I wasnt bribing or rewarding at all. or, I didnt feel like I was.

I guess that leads me to this- when we make when/then statements and she decides she doesnt care about it, then we are stuck, again. :shrug so what would be the difference between when/then and a bribe?

[ArmsOfLove]

so what would be the difference between when/then and a bribe? I usually say things "as soon as" instead of "when/then" because "as soon as" is a statement of time rather than an enticement--swim?

[Irene]

not really but thats okay ;) I was of the understanding from being here at GCM to give when/then statements. it seems the same to me :shrug

[2TMama]

{{Irene}}~

Don't be too hard on yourself-- great for you for working so diligently on your parenting :hearts On one hand you can be discouraged w/ how far you have to go-- but LOOK AT HOW FAR YOU'VE COME!! :clap

As far as the" when/then" and "as soon as" statements.........One difference (from the way *I* interpret it?!) is that "as soon as" implies that you fully expect cooperation.....wheras "when/then" almost sounds like "and if you don't want to abc, then oh well.......no xyz". I'm probably not explaining the difference *I* am seeing very well--- but hopefully someone else can give us a different spin on it! ;)

[Irene]

okay thanks yes that does help... and it helps me look at the situation from that perspective, and now it :idea to me. Sorry Im so dumb sometimes :blush

I was thinking I wish an experienced GBD'er would come supernanny me sometime :lol

[ArmsOfLove]

One difference (from the way *I* interpret it?!) is that "as soon as" implies that you fully expect cooperation.....wheras "when/then" almost sounds like "and if you don't want to abc, then oh well.......no xyz". Yes--that's a good way to differentiate it :)

and ((((((Irene))))))) you're not dumb! That's a great question!

[jujubnme]

I guess I still don't see the difference between "as soon as" and "when." It seems to me that both imply that the child will accomplish what you asked, as opposed to "if", which would convey uncertainty. :think :shrug Perhaps what made it feel like a bribe/reward was that in your description of what happened, it sounded like maybe you kept talking about her being able to paint when finished, even when she was no longer focusing on that, but just trying to avoid cleaning.

[Irene]

oh I see. No, I only told her when she asked. like she would say I want to paint, then I said, when your done cleaning your mess, you can paint. I didnt bring it up on my own, just when she asked to paint.

all that said... how it ended up, she decided she wanted to go outside and I said "when you are done picking up the dolls you can go outside" and she went and picked up the dolls :shrug

I dunno.... all this to think about. :cool

[canadiyank]

Crystal, you just inspired me to start a GBD notebook...3 yrs. of GBDing and I finally did it, lol...I must admit I've been forewarned that this 3.5 yo stuff is tough. Well, I wrote down "as soon as" vs. "when/then"...I can see where the bribe is b/c I've USED it as a bribe!!! :blush I also wrote down something you said on a different thread about lying...ah, the uncharted territory of the 3.5 yo...

[Lois]

One suggestions I would make sort of on the side is to have a 2 sets or boxes of "toys"(or whatever it is that keeps her entertained) and about ever 3 months rotate those two boxes(take one out and put the other away). I live in a small house with one big closet and so I keep only half the toys out and keep the other half in the closet for a few months then I switch. I have found that it only take 2 seconds to pick up 5 toys instead of 2 min to pick up 25 toys..kwim? It also seems like Christmas when you bring out that second batch of toys every few months and they discover anew how much fun those toys are. This concept helps keep a cleaner house, and help mostly with the overwhelmed feeling when all the toys are out and need to be cleaned up. If there are only 5 toys...then it only takes 5 tries at "helping" her pick up...kwim? I think it also stirs the imagination more as well...you never know how many uses a kleenex box has untill you give it to a 4 yo ;)..they have a huge copacity to imagine and they will think of all sort of ways to play with those 5 toys.

[MarynMunchkins]

Irene, I just wanted to let you know that we struggle with the same type of things. :hug I've actually found that putting away toys that they refuse to clean works wonderfully. Not in a punitive sense, just "Well, it looks like these are too much work to clean up. I'll pick them up and keep them until you can handle cleaning them up."

Dress-up clothes are a biggest culprit. ;) Putting 2/3 of them into an unaccessible box virtually eliminated the issue.

[Heather Micaela]

I can be a bit hyper organized andwhat I relized w/ my kids is that I had to simplify the cleaning up process by not obsessing w/ where every little toy goes. So instead of the little people in one bin, their cars in another, and the animals in yet another all the little people stuff is in one bin. Stuffed animlas, dolls, and puppets can all be thrown in the same toy box rather than 3 seperate palces.

Also, we thinned out a lot of toys so there was less to clean up.

I admit that after DS is done cleaning up - once he's asleep, I may "organize" but I no longer expect it from him and am trying not to model that obsession.

I am not saying this is a problem for you. I just reaized the simpler I made things, the easier it was for DS to do stuff himself w/o becoming overwhelmed or needing constant help form me..

[canadiyank]

Since we're talking about cleaning up, heres something I wrote about a year ago on a different board, maybe it'll give a couple ideas:

Several things have helped us:
1) I went through those toys and donated a bunch away. We have a charity that comes once a month and picks stuff up, a great incentive to simplify my life. I always have a box I'm putting old clothes in, unused toys, and things of that sort. If I can't part with them, I box up the ones she's outgrown.
2) I have a spot for everything. I find my toddler is much more likely to help pick up if she know where stuff goes. It makes it easy to say: "Take this to your puzzle drawer."
3) We clean things up before we move on. I cannot tell you how much this has helped my sanity. We used to just do a nightly sweep but I ended up (resentfully) doing most of it.
4) I teach my child how to clean up. I give specific directions, like: "Put the blocks in this box," showing her and telling her how.
5) I taught my daughter how to ask for help instead of pitifully wailing "it's tooo haaaard." I gave her a script: "Mama, can you help me, please?"
6) I help right from the beginning, by saying, "I'll pick up the red ones while you pick up the blue ones."
7) I try to realize when it's MY problem, not hers. There are some times that she's just too tired, too overwhelmed, too frustrated, or just plain too out of cooperation. In these cases, everything is going to be a struggle, so I go ahead and pick the stuff up myself. There's no reason to drive the lesson home; we'll be cleaning up a lot, and my need for a clean floor is still getting met.

[Irene]

7) I try to realize when it's MY problem, not hers. There are some times that she's just too tired, too overwhelmed, too frustrated, or just plain too out of cooperation. In these cases, everything is going to be a struggle, so I go ahead and pick the stuff up myself. There's no reason to drive the lesson home; we'll be cleaning up a lot, and my need for a clean floor is still getting met.


yeah, this is something I need to learn. I have found that organizing the toys usually helps her pick them up too. I think it was one of those too tired/hungry sort of deals that I needed to get past. (after thinking about it for a few days ;)) We are pretty organized and I can pretty much say I do all the things on your list (except Im working on number 7 :) )

And, fwiw, I have changed my phrasing this last weekend to "as soon as" and I honestly dont see a difference at all. She pretty much decides she doesnt care :shrug

[Lois]

:hug sorry this is a challenging time for you two right now

[Irene]

I decided today its just a lot easier to clean up myself and let the kids play :blush I know, not super mom stuff but maybe later.... ;)