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chelsea
04-03-2005, 12:05 AM
I have a sincere question: I have been raised to believe that obedience is required at all costs, and that the punitive way is the only way to achieve this. All the books well-meaning people have given me imply that you MUST make your children obey so they can learn the importance of obeying God. The definition of obedience being something like "First time, immediate, and complete". Is this "First time, immediate, and complete obedience" an achievable goal or is it unrealistic? Does GBD emphasize obedience or is obedience simply a byproduct of non-punitive discipline? (or is it something I should not even be focused on?) I have seen friends whose children are disobedient and ignore and dishonor their parents and I want the quality of joyful obedience to be instilled in my son but I don't know if this is a good thing to want or if it is just the remains of the punitive approach lingering in my mind. Please let me know what you think...I believe in GBD but I have absolutely no role models to ask as I grew up surrounded by familes, friends, and churches who promoted using "the rod". :sa

milkmommy
04-03-2005, 12:56 AM
I have a sincere question: I have been raised to believe that obedience is required at all costs, and that the punitive way is the only way to achieve this. All the books well-meaning people have given me imply that you MUST make your children obey so they can learn the importance of obeying God. The definition of obedience being something like "First time, immediate, and complete". Is this "First time, immediate, and complete obedience" an achievable goal or is it unrealistic? Does GBD emphasize obedience or is obedience simply a byproduct of non-punitive discipline? (or is it something I should not even be focused on?) I have seen friends whose children are disobedient and ignore and dishonor their parents and I want the quality of joyful obedience to be instilled in my son but I don't know if this is a good thing to want or if it is just the remains of the punitive approach lingering in my mind. Please let me know what you think...I believe in GBD but I have absolutely no role models to ask as I grew up surrounded by familes, friends, and churches who promoted using "the rod". :sa


I don't require my child to subit to my will, I hate the term obedience to me it seems to be a blind jerk reaction. "I do because if I don't mommy will hit me with that stick" Instead I choose to model and reflect proper behavior and earn the trust of my Child.
What does "joyfull obedience" mean?

Deanna

mummy2boys
04-03-2005, 03:44 AM
Deanna.....good question

ozmummy
04-03-2005, 05:21 AM
I am not as clear a thinker or expresser as some here, so I will just add a couple of things.

The emphasis on "first time etc" obedience is so external, is the child just being taught that as long as they look right/do right it's OK? No matter what's going on in their heart. God is interested in obedience from the heart, not our just going through the motions - that would be like the pharisees that Jesus was so critical of...
Does "joyful obedience" mean that their real emotional responses need to be smothered (If they are having a negative response to a particular request)? and does that mean that the child is not being taught/helped to deal with their negative emotions? I like that GBD allows negative emotions, names them, and helps children to deal with them. It is such a dangerous thing for us to only allow our children to express "good"/happy emotions., or that they are only acceptable to us when they are happy.
GBD still requires obedience, but it is infused with grace...."this is what needs to occur, and I will provide exactly the level of help you need for it to happen." And yes, sometimes we will get *surprise* first time, joyful obedience, and that's great. But GBD also allows us to deal with those negative responses in a way that understands where our child is at, and helps him. But in the end, the initial command/request will still be fulfilled = obedience.

Katherine
04-03-2005, 09:05 AM
Great subject! I'm glad you brought this up, b/c I think forced "obedience" is one of the hardest things to let go of when we change parenting approaches. I could say a lot about it, b/c I struggled for a long time just to grasp the ideas, and applying it on a day-to-day basis is still tough. The first thing I would point out is that there's a difference b/t obedience and compliance. (Crystal can clarify this if I don't explain it very well! :P) I can't force my kids to obey me, b/c "obedience" implies a certain willingness.. it is a CHOICE on the part of the person who is responding. It comes from within. I can require compliance on issues that I am capable of enforcing. For ex.: my 3yo doesn't want to come with me, so I let him know I require his compliance--he can do it himself, or I will help him. He won't come, so I pick him up and carry him. I've made my directive happen. I required compliance over an issues I could control. If I were trying to force obedience, I would spank him then give him a chance to "obey" then spank again and wait for him to "obey", etc. If you have a very strong-willed child on your hands, that scenario quickly degenerates to abuse or simply remains unresolved, thus undermining the parents authority and destroying the child's sense of trust, safety, and mutual respect. Using a punishment other than spanking doesn't change the end result. The only thing being taught there is how to be a bully--that it's ok to use their larger size, strength, or position of authority to force others to bend to their will..... and believe me, children internalize that lesson quickly and act it out on others around them--either during their childhood, or after they grow up and become the "big person."

I have been raised to believe that obedience is required at all costs, and that the punitive way is the only way to achieve this. All the books well-meaning people have given me imply that you MUST make your children obey so they can learn the importance of obeying God

I think *some* children can be forced to fairly consistent "obedience" (actually compliance) through punitive measures, though they will carry the emotional damage cause by that approach. Others cannot. (Trust me--I grew up with one of them. ;)) Requiring obedience is pretty arrogant on the part of parents... and I was one of those arrogant parents in the past. :blush God doesn't instruct parents to force obedience from our children. He instructs *children* to "Obey your parents in the Lord." A child has to be emotionally mature enough to willingly follow this Biblical instruction, and HE is responsible for doing it. We as parents should spend their formative years teaching them what obedience means, helping them to do it when they are not able to bring their bodies/minds/feelings under control, and modeling obedience to God.

. Is this "First time, immediate, and complete obedience" an achievable goal or is it unrealistic? Does GBD emphasize obedience or is obedience simply a byproduct of non-punitive discipline? (or is it something I should not even be focused on?)

Do we as adults display this? Is it realistic for a mature Christian to consistently obey God the first time, immediately, and completely? Does God even expect this from us? I believe He instructs us to be obedient, but He also teaches us how, gives us second chances, guides us, gives us time to think/pray and struggle over decisions, and actually provides us with the grace, strength, internal peace, and mental/spiritual reassurance to do things when we don't have the strength to do it for ourselves. If God reaches out so far to help us obey, why wouldn't we do the same for our children?

I believe true obedience is a byproduce of a changed heart--something only God can do. I can and do require my children to comply with directives.

I completely agree with what Ozmummy said regarding emotions and teaching children to maintain appearances, etc. Attempting to force obedience handicaps kids in multiple ways b/c it teaches them suppress emotions, blindly follow authority figures, and behave in ways that pacify/please those around them at the expense of making intelligent, thoughtful, educated choices.

There is an excellent thread about Jonah that addresses some of these issues... I don't remember if it was on this board or the temp board, but I'll try to find and post it.

Looking forward to some more discussion of this. There were some great threads about Obedience on the old board, and they really helped me to develop in my understanding of GBD. It's hard to show grace and gentleness to someone while simultaneously demanding unquestioning obedience and submission.

ArmsOfLove
04-03-2005, 10:22 AM
Palil--that was so beautifully summed up--no corrections needed whatsoever :)

To answer the OP . . . Children who are non-compliant and disobedient are coming from, typically, a permissive situation. They are not being taught to be those things. There are no, or questionable, boundaries and little or no expectations. Or what does exist isn't expressed so the child can understand it.

In the original Hebrew and Greek the words translated "obey" mean so much more than our idea of compliance--which is doing what you're told. In English there isn't much difference between "obey" and "comply'--but in Hebrew and Greek there is. In the Biblical languages obedience is something that a mature person chooses to do because the one being obeyed has earned their trust and shown that they are looking out for their best interest. We love God because he first loved us. It involves a level of understanding and commitment that is not present in little children. And the Biblical instructions to "obey your father and mother" are written to the person called to obey--not to the parents to force their children to obey. No where in the Bible are parents told to make their children obey. The idea that we can force it involves levels of control and egomania that are unhealthy for us as parents!

Control is a limited commodity--each of us is given just enough to control ourselves. *Self-Control*--and that is a fruit of the Sprit (and we can't force fruit to grow ;) ). When we take the control that we have and direct it at someone else it becomes other control and that is always manipulate and ineffective. When other control is directed at our children they lose the opportunities for developing self control and are modelled using control to try and control others--so that is what they are taught to do. This creates a legacy of people trying to manipulate and get their way at others' expense. When I direct my control at myself, however, the way God intended, I live a controlled and disciplined life. I model that for my children and I help them develop and use their own self control and we are able to coexist peacefully. I don't have to get anyone to bend their will to mine--rather they are learning to choose self control and to trust the people in authority over them. That trust combined with self-control will mature into obedience.

The definition of obedience being something like "First time, immediate, and complete". Is this "First time, immediate, and complete obedience" an achievable goal or is it unrealistic? Rather than unrealistic, I'd suggest it's unhealthy. This is the definition of "first time obedience" but not true "obedience". The example that has always perplexed me with regards to the idea of first time obedience is Jesus himself in the Garden of Gethsemene. If Jesus has performed "first time obedience" he would have smiled all the way to the cross and not even thought about not wanting to go there for us. After all, that is what the Father required. Instead, we see Jesus praying in the Garden 3 times that if it was possible the cup would pas from his hands; sweating blood in anguish for what lay ahead; and being heavy hearted as he obeyed. Obey he did! Thank God! And God desires (not requires) obedience from us as well. Yet when God was here in human form he modelled for us self control that does not fit the definition of first time obedience--that idea is nowhere in Scripture.

At the same time first tme compliance is a worthy goal--as is first time obedience to God my personal goal :) Life is more enjoyable when my children respond to my first call, and I get more done if I'm not having to follow my children around constantly micromanaging their behavior. In our GBD home I don't have a problem with these things. If I say something is going to be done then it gets done--compliance is required even if I end up helping them. And we have a pretty peaceful environment with lots of cooperation--that is set up as the standard of expected behavior. What I don't require is more than I am able to do myself or expectations that are unrealistic based on so many things including Scripture and their appropriate age development.

hth

This Busy Mom
04-03-2005, 10:47 AM
Children who are non-compliant and disobedient are coming from, typically, a permissive situation.

Or... they are just born that way. Really... there are some like this ;) .

(btw... great subject. My printer's getting a work out today)

MarynMunchkins
04-03-2005, 11:38 AM
:wow Everything has been so beatuifully said. :heart It made me :D just to read it.

DebraBaker
04-04-2005, 07:51 AM
I am teaching my children to be thinkers and to make well reasoned choices. I'm also teaching them to respect authority.

It's sad but true that there is as much a socioeconomic divide at work here as a religious one. People who are better educated don't tend to want their children to learn how to blindly obey, they want their children to be thinkers and eventually assume some leadership role.

People on the lower rungs of the social ladder are forced to submit to the will of others. They are socializing their children to obey blindly because, it's assumed consciously or not, they will assume roles that require them to be submissive in this world.

It has more to do with this than our faith in Jesus.

Debra Baker

BluegrassMama
04-04-2005, 07:57 AM
Palil :clap I loved your post! :)

greenemama
04-04-2005, 08:24 AM
It's sad but true that there is as much a socioeconomic divide at work here as a religious one. People who are better educated don't tend to want their children to learn how to blindly obey, they want their children to be thinkers and eventually assume some leadership role.

People on the lower rungs of the social ladder are forced to submit to the will of others. They are socializing their children to obey blindly because, it's assumed consciously or not, they will assume roles that require them to be submissive in this world.


wow, that's heavy!

i also want to add that those who are obsessive about forcing their children to obey are normally also very controlling in their other relationship, relationships to their spouses, work relationships, church relationships. and that in turn is modelled to their children, who take that as normal and continue on that same path. it's a hard cycle to break!

and i personally think it's really scary when people require instant, blind obedience of their children, especially when they require that sort of respect to all adults. it just opens the door for abusive situations. :eek

chelsea -- i know what you mean -- it's taken a long time to stop running everything about GBD through my punitive mindset seive. :hug

Chris3jam
04-04-2005, 09:17 AM
It's sad but true that there is as much a socioeconomic divide at work here as a religious one. People who are better educated don't tend to want their children to learn how to blindly obey, they want their children to be thinkers and eventually assume some leadership role.

People on the lower rungs of the social ladder are forced to submit to the will of others. They are socializing their children to obey blindly because, it's assumed consciously or not, they will assume roles that require them to be submissive in this world.


wow, that's heavy!

i also want to add that those who are obsessive about forcing their children to obey are normally also very controlling in their other relationship, relationships to their spouses, work relationships, church relationships. and that in turn is modelled to their children, who take that as normal and continue on that same path. it's a hard cycle to break!

and i personally think it's really scary when people require instant, blind obedience of their children, especially when they require that sort of respect to all adults. it just opens the door for abusive situations. :eek

chelsea -- i know what you mean -- it's taken a long time to stop running everything about GBD through my punitive mindset seive. :hug


And may I add to *that*, in my experience, control issues stem from nothing but fear; fear that the children will fail, fear of what someone else thinks of us, fear of our children "going down the wrong path", fear of personal failure, etc. And doesn't God tell us not to have a spirit of fear?

kris10s
04-04-2005, 09:32 AM
Paula, you did an excellent job addressing this! :tu :tu

We are right to avoid the whole "right away, the cheerful way, all the way" obedience trap. Obedience is from the heart and can't be forced upon children by controlling or well meaning parents. However, I think it was good to point out that we can and should require our children to be compliant. I nannyed for a very rich and well-educated couple whose children asked "why?" whenever you gave them a directive or even a suggestion. The parents thought this was great (intellectual curiousity, free-spirited thinking, etc.) but it got old REALLY quick.

chelsea
04-04-2005, 09:35 AM
Wow, you guys have all been very insightful! Thanks for your input! I had already been thinking of how "Chidren, obey your parents in the Lord" is given to children, and not to us as parents...so to read it again on here was "perfect timing" (as God's timing always is.) :)

snlmama
04-04-2005, 11:48 AM
Is this "First time, immediate, and complete obedience" an achievable goal or is it unrealistic?

Sorry, but I'm going to respond w/o reading all the other posts b/c I have definite opinions on this. TBH, teaching children "first time, immediate and complete obedience" is scary and dangerous to me. My kids generally obey. They know when I say "stop" in a certain tone they'd better stop and they do. But, in a more general sense, I want them to learn to use the sense God gave them and I don't want them obeying other people immediately and w/o question. I want them to know that it's OK to say "no" and run away if someone is trying to force them to do something they know is wrong. The children I know who have the first time obedience down scare me b/c they will literally do exactly what any adult tells them to immediately and w/o question. :eek I prefer that my children learn to be assertive and capable of protecting themselves rather than passive and "obedient."

cklewis
04-04-2005, 12:02 PM
Anybody read Ella, the Enchanted? I'm in the middle of it, but it's about a girl who's wacky fairy godmother "blessed" her (but really cursed her) with the "gift" of first-time obedience. I'm eager to finish it.

Also Alice Miller's For Your Own Good argues that the predominant child-rearing philosophy of first-time obedience in 18-19th century Germany made fascism and Hitler possible. :shock Interesting idea. . . .

C

Katherine
04-04-2005, 03:07 PM
I want them to know that it's OK to say "no" and run away if someone is trying to force them to do something they know is wrong.

I whole-heartedly agree! Sexual abuse was VERY common among the Christian school girls I grew up with.

Adults should be held accountable for the way they treat children, and that's not going to happen if children feel they deserve or are doomed to accept any and all forms of "authority" (including mistreatment) from adults.

We were visiting family this week, and I was in another room when ds was misbehaving. The adult who corrected him tapped him on the head with something and ds immediately went to pieces and came streaking to find me, crying about "Look what P. did to me... P. hit me on the head!"

At first I was shocked.. then upset... then dreading how to deal with it (b/c I'm certain it wasn't a violent thing at all, and P. would give his life for my son). But I am SO GLAD that my son recognized that as an unacceptable action and *immediately* told me what happened. In this case, I was able to talk to P. in a respectful and casual way (at least I hope! ;)) and had an opportunity to let him know that we have chosen not to use hitting as a disciplinary technique.

I think people are more careful about how they treat kids when they know that kids will speak up for themselves or report to an adult who will defend them.

LikeADimMirror
04-04-2005, 04:05 PM
And may I add to *that*, in my experience, control issues stem from nothing but fear; fear that the children will fail, fear of what someone else thinks of us, fear of our children "going down the wrong path", fear of personal failure, etc. And doesn't God tell us not to have a spirit of fear?

Good insight. That helps me understand why my mother whose life is controlled by fear was so irrationally hard on me.


I agree about kids who are taught unquestioning obedience being open for abuse. I expect my kids to obey, but they also they can always ask "why".

greenemama
04-04-2005, 04:06 PM
hey, rhonda! (likeadimmirror)

good to see you here. :cool

Chris3jam
04-04-2005, 04:08 PM
Anybody read Ella, the Enchanted? I'm in the middle of it, but it's about a girl who's wacky fairy godmother "blessed" her (but really cursed her) with the "gift" of first-time obedience. I'm eager to finish it.

(as you can tell, I still haven't figured out how to pull out quotes!)

Anyway, we saw the little movie they made of it. I won't ruin the ending for you, though!

shilohmm
04-04-2005, 08:00 PM
Anybody read Ella, the Enchanted?

:tu

I liked it. Not only does it show the "bad side" of that approach in that people take advantage of her, but I seem to recall it also shows her getting "legalist" so she can obey without obeying (which I suspect some FTO kids do - obey the letter of the law so they can avoid the spirit, if that makes sense). And I loved that those who loved her most (her mother, I think?) would try to avoid making her obey by addressing her with requests so she could choose to obey. :)

I also think FTO and authoritarian parenting make teens and even grown women far more vulnerable to sexual abuse and rape - for one thing, they've been taught not to pay attention to their uncomfortable feelings. Most rape and sexual assault victims report feeling something was wrong early enough to possibly get out of the situation, but not acting on those feelings because they "didn't want to make a fuss." Interviews with both rape victims and rapists indicate that the date rapist will "test" the victim first, to see if he can impose on her - and of course, "good girls" in the authoritarian system will let him have his way/accept these "sexually neutral" impositions/however you want to put it. So a guy can "look" very nice, and have a good reputation, because he only sexually assaults girls who let him get away with the little stuff first. Particularly if the rapist has dated the victim's more assertive friends, the victim discovers that he treated everyone else "nice" and assaulted her, so she is far more likely to blame herself. :banghead

Authoritarian systems teach kids not to protest to an uncomfortable situation unless they have a "good, solid reason" for being uncomfortable AND for refusing a request - so first off they let the guy impose on them (because they've been taught they should do as they're told unless it's morally wrong), and secondly, they've been taught not to trust their instincts. By the time the victim has a "good, solid reason" for being worried, with many a rapist, it's way too late. Rapists plan this stuff, y'know, so they've got the woman isolated before she's willing to "kick up a fuss" big enough to escape him. Worse, a lot of FTO systems teach women that males are in authority over females, while at the same time blaming women when the man "goes too far." :rolleyes

IMHO, any system where the subordinate "gets the blame" when things go wrong is an un-Christian system. "You were asking for it" is just as wrong when applied to a child who is going to get spanked as it is to a woman who is about to be raped. God gives the authority the responsibility to do what's right, not those the authority is over.

Not sure I'm making sense, here... Maybe I'll be able to say what I mean a little better tomorrow. :P

Sheryl

Joanne
04-06-2005, 08:49 AM
I expect my kids to obey. I expect to help them obey. I expect it to take the whole of our parent/child lives together. I expect when our relationship is parent/adult child, that child will still struggle with self discipline, just as I have all my life. I hope to help them (age appropriately) throughout their lives.

I do not find any Biblical justification for parent imposed punishment to create first time, cheerful obedience. Indeed, of ourselves we are nothing. The Fruit of the Spirit comes from THE SPIRIT, not ourselves or our parents.

We can only foster hearts for God, we can not impose Godliness.

milkmommy
04-06-2005, 09:05 AM
Anybody read Ella, the Enchanted? I'm in the middle of it, but it's about a girl who's wacky fairy godmother "blessed" her (but really cursed her) with the "gift" of first-time obedience. I'm eager to finish it.

(as you can tell, I still haven't figured out how to pull out quotes!)

Anyway, we saw the little movie they made of it. I won't ruin the ending for you, though!



:) To do a quote
1)type what you want to post or copy and paste.
2) hightlight it
3) go to the little bubble thing in the tool bar above the smilies its in the bottom row it looks like this http://www.serverduo.com/~gentlemo/mb/Themes/loonpurple/images/bbc/quote.gif
4) select it
5) Taaa DAA Quotes!

Deanna

Now go forth and quote!

sadie
04-06-2005, 09:52 AM
To do a quote
1)type what you want to post or copy and paste.
2) hightlight it
3) go to the little bubble thing in the tool bar above the smilies its in the bottom row it looks like this
4) select it
5) Taaa DAA Quotes!

I've done it! :)

milkmommy
04-06-2005, 09:58 AM
I've done it! smile
:mrgreen :highfive :dance

Now back to your regular scheduled program!
Deanna

Chris3jam
04-06-2005, 12:11 PM
To do a quote
1)type what you want to post or copy and paste.
2) hightlight it
3) go to the little bubble thing in the tool bar above the smilies its in the bottom row it looks like this
4) select it
5) Taaa DAA Quotes!

:doh :doh :doh :blush

Did it, but boy do I feel dumb now! Like, DUH!

milkmommy
04-06-2005, 12:14 PM
To do a quote
1)type what you want to post or copy and paste.
2) hightlight it
3) go to the little bubble thing in the tool bar above the smilies its in the bottom row it looks like this
4) select it
5) Taaa DAA Quotes!

:doh :doh :doh :blush

Did it, but boy do I feel dumb now! Like, DUH!


Don't feel bad if you do a search on my posts you'll find where I asked this very question on the "how do this board works" forum :lol

Deanna

Hermana Linda
04-06-2005, 02:45 PM
Did it, but boy do I feel dumb now! Like, DUH!
Me too! All this time, I've been clicking the quote button on the post and then cutting out everything I didn't want. Although, that way, the quote got a name with it. And this way, it does not... But I really like this way better.

milkmommy
04-06-2005, 02:56 PM
Good glad you all obeyed my quoting dirrections... Did you all do it with a happy heart?
:lol :lol If not I'll have to get me a stick and :poke :lol
Just trying to get us back on topic ;)

Deanna

Chris3jam
04-06-2005, 05:48 PM
And what makes you think I would tell you if I did it with a happy heart or not?!? Hmmm? Hey, I made sure to *look* happy, ok?

:D

chelsea
04-06-2005, 08:25 PM
To do a quote
1)type what you want to post or copy and paste.
2) hightlight it
3) go to the little bubble thing in the tool bar above the smilies its in the bottom row it looks like this
4) select it
5) Taaa DAA Quotes!

Thanks Deanna for quote instructions! For every person that asks a question, there are ten more who are silently wondering the same thing...and I was one of them! :D

milkmommy
04-06-2005, 08:44 PM
And what makes you think I would tell you if I did it with a happy heart or not?!? Hmmm? Hey, I made sure to *look* happy, ok?

:D


Nope not good enough :poke No don't you fel closer to God?

Deanna

chelsea
04-07-2005, 12:46 PM
Nope not good enough No don't you fel closer to God?

Ok, ok, I know the obedience question sounded dumb but it's hard when you have NO ONE to ask these questions to. :blush By the way, I was in no way implying that punitive was right, I was just repeating what I had been told and I was simply wanting to know about the obedience thing and whether obedience is a goal to be worked towards or not to even worry about "obedience". But anyways, thanks everyone for your discussions!

Chris3jam
04-07-2005, 12:53 PM
Nope not good enough No don't you fel closer to God?

Hey, how do you know how my heart feels?! I made sure that I *looked* right!

Ok, ok, I know the obedience question sounded dumb but it's hard when you have NO ONE to ask these questions to. By the way, I was in no way implying that punitive was right, I was just repeating what I had been told and I was simply wanting to know about the obedience thing and whether obedience is a goal to be worked towards or not to even worry about "obedience". But anyways, thanks everyone for your discussions!

No. I wasn't dumb. "The only dumb question is the unasked one". We just got off on a tangent. I'm sorry. Did we at least answer your questions before we got so silly? :D

milkmommy
04-07-2005, 02:54 PM
Nope not good enough No don't you fel closer to God?

Ok, ok, I know the obedience question sounded dumb but it's hard when you have NO ONE to ask these questions to. :blush By the way, I was in no way implying that punitive was right, I was just repeating what I had been told and I was simply wanting to know about the obedience thing and whether obedience is a goal to be worked towards or not to even worry about "obedience". But anyways, thanks everyone for your discussions!


(((Chelsea))) Your question wasn't at all dumb :O We just got side lined on a silly matter. Your question is quite a normal one and one many Moms here struggle/struggled with. For me I want complience their is a diffrence between complience and obedience. For me its not soo much a "religious" reason but a safety one I don't want unquestioning obedience from my children because I want them to be able to think for them selfs, to beable to distinguish a sae situation from a dangerous one. When all I do is demmand obedience without any reasoning I'm just teaching my child to follow who's ever the "boss" when It myself or DH that might be fine and dandy but take us out of the picture and it could be a cult leader, gang leader, and no I don't believe keeping my child with me 100% and HS etc will prevent this from happening..
However to teach complience is diffrent to not engage in I'm the boss power struggles but to show my child sometimes in a happy playfull way and others in a "see her" firm way (yet not puntive) that I can be trusted and what I'll teach her to respect and want to please not just me but the desire to please her self and to better her self.

Deanna

chelsea
04-07-2005, 04:33 PM
When all I do is demmand obedience without any reasoning I'm just teaching my child to follow who's ever the "boss" when It myself or DH that might be fine and dandy but take us out of the picture and it could be a cult leader, gang leader
That is so true! I never saw it in that light before. I think we also need to explain to our children that some instruction is given to them for their own benefit, but some "instruction" will be given to them by people with selfish motives....and the importance of discerning between the two (like in Ella Enchanted).

Sanveann
04-07-2005, 04:37 PM
When all I do is demmand obedience without any reasoning I'm just teaching my child to follow who's ever the "boss" when It myself or DH that might be fine and dandy but take us out of the picture and it could be a cult leader, gang leader, and no I don't believe keeping my child with me 100% and HS etc will prevent this from happening..

I was just going to post about this! We were discussing demanding immediate, unquestioning obedience on another board I'm on, and one of the other members said that she basically obeyed herself right into a cult when she was younger.

Havilah
04-07-2005, 04:55 PM
yup. i obeyed myself right into a cult, too (a cultish church... not technically a true cult, but close).

:eek

milkmommy
04-07-2005, 05:04 PM
I want my child to Follow Gods demands but more importantly I want her to understand Why God's love is worth obeying... When this is accomplished I've then succeded in not only opening her heart to Gods powerful message of love but I've given her a foundation of self worth, I've helped her to be able to defend her faith as a Christian to others and I've given her the power to pass this knowlege on to her children.

Deanna

chelsea
04-07-2005, 05:28 PM
I want my child to Follow Gods demands but more importantly I want her to understand Why God's love is worth obeying... When this is accomplished I've then succeded in not only opening her heart to Gods power message of love but I've given her a foundation of self worth, I've helped her to be able to defend her faith as a Christian to others and I've given her the power to pass this knowlege on to her children.
Well said, Deanna!

arymanth
04-07-2005, 07:59 PM
When all I do is demmand obedience without any reasoning I'm just teaching my child to follow who's ever the "boss" when It myself or DH that might be fine and dandy but take us out of the picture and it could be a cult leader, gang leader

Hmmmm..... could this be part of the reason that parents are attracted to "cultish" parenting groups like Ezzo/Gothard/Pearls? Is it possible that they are the products of this kind of discipline themselves and like having a set of detailed instructions to follow? This is something I commonly hear about kids who are "Ezzo'ed", etc. They are so used to being "micro-managed" that they don't know how to handle life without a list of specific instructions. It's their "security". Could this explain the obsession with schedules and rules?

Could it be that they enjoy the fact that now THEY get to be the ones in control?

I am just starting to read "For Their Own Good" by Allice Miller about parenting in the late 1800's and how it might have been connected with setting the stage for allowing the Nazis to come to power. I just wonder if this is part of it... the whole "now it's my turn to be the bully" idea. I'm sure that parents don't CONSCIOUSLY think this... I know I didn't, and I was a VERY punitive parent for a long time....but when God finally started dealing with my heart in this area, this was one of the driving forces behind my parenting methods. POWER

First time, happy heart obedience can cause a great deal of hidden resentment in individuals that can come out in later years as almost a kind of "revenge" against their own children. I had to obey... now YOU have to obey ME.

Just my musings....

Stephanie

UltraMother
04-07-2005, 11:01 PM
I totally agree with Alice Miller on this one. After being powerless for so long under our own parents, we now have children that we are able to dominate. It seems to be almost a reflex. I can see it very clearly in my own family, how my grandfather bullied his kids, and how my father /uncles/aunts return the favor to their kids, and so on. The comments made at family reunions show just how deeply that oppressing control is still felt and resented.

Chris3jam
04-08-2005, 07:12 AM
Yep, Stephanie. And fear. Fear of not being in control. Fear of being "powerless" again, only, this time, to a munchkin, which would be humiliating as all get out. Fear of failure. Fear of what "people will say". Fear of the unknown. Fear of a lot of things. And remember when your parents told you "Because I told you so! When you live under my roof you follow my rules! When you get out on your own, then you can do what you want!" Yep. A lot of kids will do just that.

Katherine
04-08-2005, 07:31 AM
Hmmmm..... could this be part of the reason that parents are attracted to "cultish" parenting groups like Ezzo/Gothard/Pearls? Is it possible that they are the products of this kind of discipline themselves and like having a set of detailed instructions to follow? This is something I commonly hear about kids who are "Ezzo'ed", etc. They are so used to being "micro-managed" that they don't know how to handle life without a list of specific instructions. It's their "security". Could this explain the obsession with schedules and rules?

BINGO! And the fear, thing, too like ChrisJam mentioned. Fear of failure and fear of judgement, fear of something bad happening to their kids. The perceived power to control other things and other people is a crippling burden to bear. If we think we do or *ought* to have so much control of the things around us, then the fate of our world lies in our hands instead of God's.

It was also mentioned on the old board that this control aspect of punitive parenting has particularly devestating effects of girls, b/c they grow up and are attracted to men like some of their fathers/teachers/leaders... men who demand immediate, absolute, blind obedeience.... Men who make up and change the rules as they go along... who require servitude bordering on slavery and use their Biblical headship to bludgeon their wives and children. Not saying that ALWAYS happens to girls who were raised punitively (my dad, for example... even though he believed in Biblical spanking... is a kind and loving person.. not at all domineering), but it is shockingly common, as is physical and emotional abuse. The girls from my Christian school/church who married relatively early (before they finished college or lived on their own for a bit) were especially prone to these types of relationships. We also had a lot of girls IN JR HIGH AND HIGH SCHOOL who were involved with domineering older men (some with their parents consent! :eek) and running away, dropping out, getting pg, etc.

CelticJourney
04-08-2005, 07:49 AM
The perceived power to control other things and other people is a crippling burden to bear.


Anyother twist that Ezzo adds is the 'parents/marriage' first idea. If you grew up with a 'second class family member' status, it would seem logical to me that when you became the parent you would feel you had paid your 'dues' and it was your turn to be in control and the 'priority'. What a sad legecy Ezzo and others are leaving.

ArmsOfLove
04-08-2005, 11:48 AM
Many Christian and secular psychiatrists are very concerned about the combination in Ezzo of "first time obedience" and a total lack of teaching about sexual things (including the proper names of body parts). This creates an environment RIPE for sexual abuse--in or out of the home--and the child not able to do anything about it (not even report it) :(

Katherine
04-08-2005, 12:26 PM
Anyother twist that Ezzo adds is the 'parents/marriage' first idea. If you grew up with a 'second class family member' status, it would seem logical to me that when you became the parent you would feel you had paid your 'dues' and it was your turn to be in control and the 'priority'. What a sad legecy Ezzo and others are leaving.

YES YES! (I know.. I just keep agreeing with everybody! hehe.. :O

I find myself reacting to this in very specific ways already... Making spaces around the house specifically for the boys.... letting them keep their coats, hats, shoes, toys, etc. downstairs and so on. My sis lived with us for a few months, and I arranged for her to have her own space *on the main floor* for her belongings... her own shelf on the shoe rack, some hooks for her coats and purses, a basket for her mail and paperwork, etc., and of course she had her own room, closet, and bathroom. We had to keep EVERYTHING in our rooms while we were growing up. If we laid papers on the counter temporarily or left shoes in the living room and forgot to take them upstairs my Mom would get irritated with us. I understand not liking things to pile up or be out of place, but we felt like the house was theirs and we just lived there (and they pretty much felt that way, too... they paid the bills, and so on. When we moved out, we could keep house like we wanted) :/

mrsramjet
04-10-2005, 02:37 AM
palil said
but we felt like the house was theirs and we just lived there (and they pretty much felt that way, too... they paid the bills, and so on. When we moved out, we could keep house like we wanted) confused

this has just struck a chord for me regarding one of my best friends. well, it's a little cool at the moment, due to my NOT being ezzo, iykwim.
her father was very authoritarian and emotionally abusive. she has often told little stories about how their father considered his and their mum's needs, desires, schedules etc to be way more important than the kids. and how the kids needed to work around the house to show how grateful they were for all they were provided with. even to the food they ate compared to their parents. (not as toddlers, as 16, 17 year olds) and how he was so jealous of his relationship with his wife and communicated the feeling that they were intruding on that.
on one hand it makes sense that she would hear ezzo's teaching on marriage first and stuff like couch time and kids not questioning what colour cup they get etc and it would 'fit' with the templates in her head. but then on the other hand, she has worked so hard to be free of him and his anger it upsets me so much that she doesn't recognise this stuff for what it is......
*sigh*