Punishing as part of potty training?!?

[4blessings]

Some moms at p/s were talking this a.m. about PTing. One mom very matter-of-factly said that she spanks for potty accidents. I laughed at first, b/c I thought she was joking but she wasn't! Once she takes her children out of diapers (which she does at exactly 2!), she spanks them if they have an accident. She claims it's effective b/c they don't have many accidents b/c they want to avoid the spankings. I have my doubts about whether or not it really "works", but let's say it does. Is the cost to the child worth it? I guess I'm naive b/c I had no idea modern-day moms still punished for potty accidents. It makes me sick! What's the point of that, anyway? When my children have an accident, they feel slightly embarrassed anyway. Why make them feel worse?

I don't know. I take a pretty low-key approach to PTing, anyway. I wait until three and it's over with in about two weeks. Once my kiddos are out of diapers, we almost never have an accident. My most recently PTed child took 1.5 weeks to "get it" and since then, she's had one accident.

Ugh. I'm going to have to stop talking "parenting" to people I know IRL.

[ArmsOfLove]

that is so sad :(

[schoolofmom]

My SIL used to spank my nephew when he had accidents. He's a very laid-back child and just did not want to learn to use the potty. He finally stopped going in his underwear when he was about 4, which is probably when he would have learned to do it regardless of the punishment. :( It used to make me want to throw up.

[Piper2]

My mother used to keep telling me to spank Kevin for pooping in his pants, but I think she's finally given up because I would always tune her out and/or immediately change the subject. She still asks about every other day how the potty training is going, though. :banghead Now I know we're not in the "normal" situation because Kevin's almost 6, but we're finally almost to the point where he's telling us why he does it now, and I know he wouldn't be doing that if we spanked him every time he went. Besides, in the past he was telling us he was afraid it would hurt, so somebody tell me what good spanking him would have done if he believed his rear end was going to hurt anyway? :/

[cklewis]

One of my IRL friends mentioned this to me. I said, "You know he's not doing it just to 'get you'?" She said, "Yes, he is!! He was trying to manipulate me!!" :wow

She's an Ezzo mom. It was one of the final nails in the ezzo coffin for me.

C

[ArmsOfLove]

that is all just so sad :cry children pt when they are ready--when they are physically, emotionally, mentally, developmentally ready. :(

[3BlueArrows4Us]

Ugh! This drives me insane! I have 3 boys...who naturally PT later anyhow...and I am always dealing with MIL on this issue! GAG!!!

She claims to have had all 4 of her kids PT'd by 18mo! Whatever...SHE was the PT'd one! LOL!

DS#1 was dry during the day between 2-1/2 and 3 and finally began pooping in the potty shortly after turning 3. Once he was ready, it was a breeze! Fighting it before that point is just a waste and :banghead. DS#2 is being a bit more of a challenge. He is just not ready and he just truned 3 this month.

Thankfully, we have a pediatrician who is all about letting them get there on their own. We're encouraging it with a sticker chart and such, but certainly not making him feel bad for not going. MIL makes him feel so bad when she is around. Makes me very upset!!!!

:td

[Heather]

:rolleyes That is ridiculous... My 6 year old still has accidents. But I would never spank for an accident - much to the dismay of my MIL... :banghead

[DebraBaker]

:hissyfit :td :banghead

[4blessings]

MIL makes him feel so bad when she is around.

Yeah, my mom was the same way with all of my children on the PTing issue. She claimed that we were all fully trained by two and was appalled that I didn't even start trying with my children until three. She'd say things like "When are you going to start using the potty? Only babies wear diapers." When my oldest had a relapse with pooping after his little brother was born (he was 3 years and 3 months at the time), she told me that if he wanted to be a baby to treat him like one and start making him wear diapers all the time again. :rolleyes

Frankly, I just don't understand the big hang ups people have about PTing. They all get there eventually. Why stress everyone out in the process? I have two friends who pushed their children so hard, made them feel badly for potty accidents, etc. They both now realize that it was a mistake. Both children had frequent accidents until age 7 and the moms blame it on the fact that they pushed them so hard.

Edited to say that I know that many children have accidents and that it's not always caused by too much pressure. Both of these moms felt it was the cause for their children.

[erinee]

Goodness, I was even perusing the Pearl's site once and they said not to punish for potty-training accidents! Yikes!

[Kasi]

Confession...I used to punish ds#1 for potty accidents. I was young and used the only parenting tools I had... my parents. :( He didn't successfully potty learn until he was nearly 4yo. I let my other boys do it at their own pace and didn't punish, and they also were nearly 4yo before they were toilet learned.

It's not effective. I learned through teaching toddlers & young preschoolers in daycares & preschools, that children will learn to toilet when they are ready...not before. It doesn't matter what approach or methods you use...it is their body and they must be in control of it...not the parents.

It saddens me that parents seem to think they can force this...it's sort of like punishing a baby for not learning to crawl at 6 months old. Or not talking by 12 months old. Would any parent punish for that? How exactly would they "teach" that.

[Oliveshoots]

Okay, has she ever heard the term "anal"? (As in a person's personality?) Although this is a bit Freudian, some other researchers believe in the stage where a child's goals/needs are focused on bodily functions (eating, peeing, pooping) and if the "crisis" is not resolved, or is resolved incorrectly, they can have "issues". Okay I know I'm mixing my research theories here, (it's been a while) but basically the theory goes (and I see quite a bit of truth in this respect) that if a child is punished for accidents, they will grow up to be EXTREMELY OBSESSED (beyond flylady obsession ;)) with cleanliness, perfection, etc. etc. putting horribly outrageous expectations on themselves and others. I dont' know if there's a connection between this and OCD, I can't remember if that was mentioned when we studied these theories. On the other extreme, a child who is never taught to handle their bodily functions appropriately may grow up to be an extremely messy/irresponsible person.

Now, of course we know this theory cannot be used to explain all grown-up behaviors, but by punishing her child for accidents, she is setting him up to have some serious issues. But we all know that punishment in and of itself is harmful. Using it with PT to me is just, well, mean. :td

My mom tells me of someone she knew who punished for accidents, and the little boy would go hide in the corner to poop in his pants, or would hold his poop in for DAYS maybe even WEEKS and had to have all kinds of suppositories/laxatives and suffered from horrible constipation. :(

Also, there is another theory about this stage, where the child has a need to learn to handle bodily functions appropriately to have good self-esteem and independence. I would think that if this is *forced* then they are not going to feel good about what they've learned, and will be dependent on that punishment to help them take care of themselves.

This of course is all just my opinion, based on what I can remember from university courses, but my point is she really needs to educate herself on more positive ways to PT because she could really be damaging him emotionally and mentally (obviously she's damaging him physically.) There are also some studies I've run across on nospank.com that seem to associate spanking on the bottom with sexual deviance...and then when you throw potty training in there, well, I would think that could really mess with someone's head, depending on their personality and environment, and lead to some icky grown-up issues.

Hope this doesn't sound like a bunch of psychobabble.

I did have a point when i started this post :O

[DebraBaker]

Perhaps you should ask Granny if *she'd* like *you* to punish *her* when she gets old and loses control of her bladder and bowels.

DB

[Sanveann]

That sounds like a good way to give a kid some severe hangups.

[3BlueArrows4Us]

4Blessings ~ YES! That is exactly what my MIL does. *sigh* It's a wonder dh turned out as incredible as he is!!! ;)

DebraBaker ~ I like that idea! Puts it into perspective for sure! LOL!

[Piper2]

:hissyfit I know I said my mom had stopped suggesting spanking for Kevin's potty problems, but she apparently hasn't. I just got off the phone with her, and she asked the usual, "How's it going with the potty training," question and I gave her the usual, "We're working on it," answer. But then she said, "Now I know you don't believe in spanking, but I've heard that it's the only thing that'll work when they get this age," and then something about the fact that he's never been spanked (he has been, but not for a long time) will increase the shock value of it and make it more effective. :rolleyes She relayed the story (and she's told me a million times when trying to convince me to spank Kevin for something) about when my grandfather "spanked" my little brother with a long piece of grass (it was more for effect than to inflict pain) once for climbing up on the tractor when he wasn't supposed to, and how horrified my brother was that PaPa would actually spank him, but he never got on the tractor by himself ever again. :banghead Luckily, right then, Kevin started calling me from the other room (that's my story, and I'm sticking to it...no, he really was ;)), so I had to get off the phone.

I honestly have no idea what to do about Kevin's potty problems, but I'm absolutely, positively NOT going to spank him for it. :mad And if my mom doesn't like it, tough -- she doesn' have to do my laundry or live with having to clean him up. She's 9 hours away, for Pete's sake! :rolleyes She doesn't even know he fell and hit his head Sunday afternoon (has a nice goose egg on his forehead and he's starting to develop a black eye) or that we've gone off Feingold simply because she hasn't asked and I haven't felt like telling her.

Sorry...just had to vent.

[Sandy]

Why is it families put so much pressure on us over a bodily function????? My mom was the same way...Nat was past 4 before he was even interested in going to the potty, and I thought my mom was going to have heart failure over it. I was the one changing pants...why should she care???? Once he got interested, it wasn't a problem...only one or two accidents...a few poops in his pants...got the hang of that. Done deal.

So now I get to hear about co-sleeping.... :banghead

[CelticJourney]

<<Goodness, I was even perusing the Pearl's site once and they said not to punish for potty-training accidents! Yikes!>>

Unfortunately I think they have one standard for overnight accidents (because Debi was a 'bedwetter' and understands that :rolleyes), but I do remember something about spraying them off outside with a cold hose for daytime accidents :(

[Piper2]

Why is it families put so much pressure on us over a bodily function?????

No pun intended?? ;)

Sorry...just had a little silliness I guess I just had to get out. :blush

[greenemama]

:cry

[greenemama]

off topic -- 4blessings, would you be willing to describe how you potty train in two weeks at age three? :) starting another thread?

:cup

[4blessings]

off topic -- 4blessings, would you be willing to describe how you potty train in two weeks at age three? :) starting another thread?

:cup


LOL, well it's not for everyone, but I use the bare bottom approach. I let my kids run around with nothing on the bottom half for a few days. They can see and feel what's going on and it seems to click pretty quickly. I do a lot of reminding the first couple of days b/c for three years, they've gone whenever and wherever the urge hits them. To some extent, it's like breaking a habit, KWIM? I deal with a few messes the first couple of days, but after a while, I can see it clicking. First, they look down when they're peeing all over the floor, LOL! After a few times of that, (if you're lucky, LOL!) they'll start to go, realize what's happening and stop. Next, they'll start to start, grab themselves and say, "I'm about to pee!" I don't use pull-ups at all. When we go out, I make sure I take them potty before we leave and while we're out and I use plastic covered training pants in case of an accident. I think pull-ups are useless b/c they're too much like a diaper.

That's about it. Some of my children have trained more quickly than others. And, I've often started, realized that the child is just peeing everywhere and not making any connection, so I quit and try again in a month or so. I know lots of people who feel like once you start, you shouldn't go back, but I refuse to make PTing an issue, so I don't have any problem starting and stopping as many times as it takes. I really think the key is knowing when your child is ready and not trying a day before.

[erinee]

<<Goodness, I was even perusing the Pearl's site once and they said not to punish for potty-training accidents! Yikes!>>

Unfortunately I think they have one standard for overnight accidents (because Debi was a 'bedwetter' and understands that :rolleyes), but I do remember something about spraying them off outside with a cold hose for daytime accidents :(



You're right. I just went back to their website after posting that to see where I had read that, and saw that it was for bedwetting rather than daytime wetting. So Debi understands something that *she* had a problem with, but if she didn't have a problem with it herself, it must be the child just being manipulative or lazy, I guess. :( Now that you mention the hosing off, I do remember reading about that, but I can't remember if it was here, their website, or the online version of their book. Ick.

[greenemama]

thanks! :)

[SandKsmama]

At another board I post on, a mom was asking for advice about this very thing. I'm proud to say that most every mom encouraged her to let it go, that the 3 year old would learn to potty when she was ready. However, the mom is adamant that even if she doesn't punish for accidents, if she tells said 3 year old to sit on the potty, then the girl MUST obey. She describes how she punishes(which means spanking in this case) for "attitude and disobedience", and "every time she tells her no, b/c she cannot tell us no".

I have quit posting to this particular mom, b/c she asks for advice, but really only wants punitive advice that fits with her authoritarian viewpoint. (and no offense, Camille - but she is a "lifer" at BJU and it's a HUGE part of how she views the world, her children, etc.)

I think I reacted so strongly to this b/c I used to be that punitive myself(spanking my child for *ever* saying no to me, etc.), but even I didn't consider a 3 year old not being potty trained to be defiance. What is up with that??

Amanda

[Sanveann]

The child is spanked every time she says no, to anything her parents tell her???

[cklewis]

I have quit posting to this particular mom, b/c she asks for advice, but really only wants punitive advice that fits with her authoritarian viewpoint. (and no offense, Camille - but she is a "lifer" at BJU and it's a HUGE part of how she views the world, her children, etc.)

No offense taken! :D But look in your PM box.

C

[ArmsOfLove]

I have two friends who pushed their children so hard, made them feel badly for potty accidents, etc. They both now realize that it was a mistake. Both children had frequent accidents until age 7 and the moms blame it on the fact that they pushed them so hard. this is actually quite common. Many moms find that when their child is especially resistant if they just drop it the child is pt'd within 6 months. It can really be about control when control is taken away from the child--especially in homes where there are big control issues. Children have absolute control over their bodily functions and if they have nothing else to control then eating and pottying are two areas where they may channel this issue.

[cklewis]

What is it the nurse told me in the hospital after Elise was born? :think Something about you control your elimination and you have to want to turn it on and off. You can't be made to do it.

I can't remember exactly. She was inserting a cathater at the time before my epidural had worn off. :blush

C

[SandKsmama]

Sanveann - The child is spanked every time she says no, to anything her parents tell her???

Yep. And even more sad is that I know *tons* of people from my Ezzo days, who totally agree with that. Heck, several years ago, I would have agreed with the idea of that too. But now, I think, first of all, how ridiculous and domineering. Second of all, what are you teaching your child by putting yourself in *that* level of control? Do you really want them to learn NEVER to say no??

Ayiyi - it's *so* frustrating.

Amanda

[Sanveann]

I think that is positively horrific!!!!! I would be terrified my kids would grow up and be afraid to say no to sexual abuse, or to leave an abusive spouse.

[AprilBr]

My sil, bil, fil, and mil...not to mention dh's aunt who kept my niece would spank her for having accidents because she knew better...she will be 3 in June and this has been going on for AT LEAST a year. But dh's aunt also spanks the kids she keeps if they won't take a nap. :mad