Dobson and babies

[sadie]

Now I know Dobson gives parenting advice for children from about a year and a half onwards (or at least, that's when he says it's acceptable to start spanking :( ), but does he do any baby advice?

Does anyone know his views on bfing, CIO, co-sleeping, sling wearing, or any other baby-related issues? I searched his site and i couldn't really find any info. It seems like he does not give his opinion much on parenting during the first year.

[Sara]

Well, he has this book:
http://www.family.org/resources/itempg.cfm?itemid=60&sid=1087&pid=292&pg=1

I don't think it is written specifically by him, but I'm sure he had a say as to some of the content... I haven't read the book, though, so I don't know what he says about baby care!

BTW, doesn't $33 seem really steep?

[Hannah Jo]

You know, I would be interested in knowing the answer to this too. I was disappointed in Dobson's statement against Ezzo- he seemed to imply that the Babywise program was fine as long as you used it "flexibly" and were aware that it was not the only way to raise a baby. The problem that I have with this is that Babywise teaches nonsense like it is fine to leave the baby crying for 45 minutes, and feeding a baby on demand spoils them and will turn them into out of control children. The whole philosophy is whacked, so I am a little suspicious when Dobson states he has heard about the "many ways in which God has used GFI to help young families achieve greater harmony and stability"

Here's the link I found at ezzo.info

http://www.ezzo.info/Focus/FOTF_9-04.htm

[sadie]

Yes, Hannah Jo, that is the kind of stuff I am wondering about. if he supports nurturing our babies and not doing CIO. You know, like does he at least support being gentle with babies, if not with older children? Does he believe in the whole "sin nature from birth" nonsense that Ezzo and Pearl do to justify spanking and neglecting babies?

[Katherine]

nak

I have a Dobson book that deals with "The First Two Years" (in fact, I think that's the title)

I'll flip through it and refresh my memory. What I recall off hand is that he does not advocate spanking a baby younger than 18 months, but I'm pretty sure he does hold to the idea that babies have a sin nature that must be brought into submission to parental authority.

more later.. ;)

[Katherine]

ACK! I couldn't find the book... I have a sneaking suspicion that I got rid of it. :/ But I did flip back through Dare to Discipline, and I'll tell you what I remember about Dobson in general:

The main thing I remember is a lack of specific suggestions and helpful info in terms of disciplining very young children. He is extremely vague, IMO, and that's one thing that left me vulnerable to accepting Pearl's VERY specific ideas. :rolleyes

Dobson does say that children younger than 15-18 months should never be spanked, and suggests starting around this time with "mild" discipline, such as rapping them on the hands when they touch an outlet. He implies that spanking is necessary for all-out defiance or dangerous acts like running into the street, but he adds that toddlers will do this type of stuff, and a spanking may not be enough to deter it. (btw.. he also says that most spanking should be over by about the first grade. I think most Dobson followers would be shocked by that piece of info)

He stated that there is a difference b/t a 2yo crying at bedtime b/c he is afraid of the dark and crying b/c he doesn't want to go nighty-night, and that the parent's actions should be different depending on the reason. (how very specific!) ;)

He makes some statements that are in line with age-appropriateness and gentle parenting (such as comments about seeing things through your child's eyes, and reminders that toddlers' natural curiosity is healthy and shouldn't be squelched, that children want to know where their boundaries are and who is available to enforce them, etc) but then he strongly emphasizes the need for parents to establish their rule during these early years. He strongly advocates an adversarial mindset from day one and speaks of the relationship in terms of terms of a battle and a contest of will. He refers to children as anarchists. :P

"an appropriate spanking is the shortest and most effective route to an attitude adjustment"
"her tiny little girl had hopelessly beaten her in a contest of wills"

To be perfectly honest, I find his child-rearing advice regarding young children to be confusing, inconsistent, vague, and sadly inadequate for such a critical developmental stage in life. At the time when I was searching for parenting guidance (and still believed spanking was Biblical) I liked his "tone" but was confused and disappointed by the holes in his theory, the ambiguity of his statements, and the lack of real-life practical help I received. I don't remember him talking a lot about slinging and such, and I'm almost certain he does not advocate co-sleeping, but I don't have any literature with me to confirm that. I suspect he would probably support some versions of CIO, mainly b/c he assigns negative and sinful motives even to very young children and insists that parents should "draw a line in the sand." :(

[ArmsOfLove]

that babies have a sin nature that must be brought into submission to parental authority. Is it just me or does anyone else find it incredibly arrogant to think that we could ever bring a sin nature into submission to *our* authority??? If we can bring their sin nature into submission, why not our own? Why did Jesus need to suffer and die if it's that easy?

[MarynMunchkins]

You know, Crystal, I do now. :blush But honestly, when Doug was itty bitty, it was just the thing that everyone believed. :( No one ever made that connection for me before, and parenting was so overwhelming for me that I didn't really do much deep thinking. ;)

The more I talk about GBD to other people, the more shocked I am to discover how few people are able to draw the logical conclusion between us having grace and our children deserving the same. I haven't decided because that's because the punitive mindset is so ingrained in our culture or because most Christians are mostly ignorant about the Bible. :think For me, it was a lot of both. :shifty The more I study, the more I wonder how on earth I could have thought it was okay to punish and hurt my kids. :blush :cry

But GCM saved me from that line of thinking! :mrgreen :heart

[ArmsOfLove]

oh (((((Mary))))) I hope I didn't hurt your feelings! I mostly get angry at the teachers of these ideas. I love what Ashley Montagu says about how "expert" means "you should know better" (or something like that ;) ).

[Teribear]

When I hear Dobson and Ezzo and Pearl referred to as parenting "experts" it always reminds me of my dad's entomology of the word "expert"

Ex = a has been
Spert = a drip under pressure.

Yeah...by that definition I think they qualify.

[ArmsOfLove]

:lol

[MarynMunchkins]

((Crystal)) My feelings aren't the slightest bit hurt! :) I actually have the unique advantange of having been on both sides of the argument, and debated both for and against spanking. For better or worse, it gives a perspective that many people lack.

It helps to be able to look at my own past and see what I was thinking/feeling. Than I can argue against it. ;)

[ArmsOfLove]

Are you a Gemini? ;)

[TulipMama]

Just want to toss into this conversation, that I believe that sin has a strong hold on us (even from birth.) Someone can believe that, and still not attribute an infant's natural actions as "sinful"--but motivated by God's design! (Crying to communicate, etc.)

I think Crystal has stated it so well,

Is it just me or does anyone else find it incredibly arrogant to think that we could ever bring a sin nature into submission to *our* authority??? If we can bring their sin nature into submission, why not our own? Why did Jesus need to suffer and die if it's that easy?

[Katherine]

TulipMama,

I heartily agree. I've even had to learn as an adult to reconsider which things I assign to my "sin nature" (thus assuming they are automatically WRONG) and which thing I attribute to my human nature and the fact that I am made in God's likeness.

The thread about anger has this topic fresh in my mind, so I'll use it as an example: I grew up thinking it was wrong to be angry, with very few exceptions... now I think of anger as part of my emotional makeup--sometimes it's healthy, other times it's damaging, but it's not automatically a "sin." Rather, it's part of the complex person God made me to be, and I must learn to deal with it effectively, harness it's motivational power at times, restrain it at other times, and learn what's driving it.

a bit off topic, but I thought that was such a great point, I wanted to comment on it. :O

[Tengokujin]

I believe that Dobson was a Jr. High guidance counsellor early on. I haven't read him in a long time, ever since I got better info., but for me, knowing that his orientation is really that age group made his writings and vaguenesses make more sense. I don't mean he's right, just that knowing his background made it easier to follow his logic. To me, his POV seemed to be "this is what to do so your kid isn't a delinquent, homosexual/promiscuous, etc. He seems to start with "this is where you don't want to end up, so take this path earlier" . doesn't seem to be at all about understanding and building relationship with your small child, but "getting on the right track" to avoid big pitfalls later.

So, it seems to me that his baby/toddler advice would be kinda upside down, don't cha think??

[Close2MyHeart]

This is a rough topic for me. I was raised on Dobson and have ready many of his book on my on-set of parenthood. In fact I just finished reading "Hide and Seek" a few mos ago. It's been interesting reading your opinions of him. and I agree that he does seem a little vague. On the plus side (from what I've read anyway) his children seem to have grown up great!

[TestifyToLove]

Dobson supports CIO and is against co-sleeping.

I don't know if I can find something in his current writings or website to support that. However, I distinctly remember DH came home about 15 months ago FURIOUS. I was completly lost as he was rambling on and on about Dobson and how he had tolerated him before but no more.

He forbad Dobson in our house at that point because it was an episode of Focus on the Family where Dobson came down very harshly on the mother of a 12 monther who was co-sleeping and was supportive of very harsh CIO tactics, basically leave baby and if they puke clean it up later.

[sadie]

:wincing

It just breaks my heart to hear people encourage such horrible treatment of precious babies. :cry :bheart

As far as Dobson's children being happy, we have had a similar discussion on the old board about the Pearl children, and how "successful and happy" they are. My views on this subject are that no one really knows the truth except for the family. Both the Pearls and Dobson only release information about their personal life that makes them look good and makes their ideas look correct. We have no idea what their personal and intimate relationship with their children is like. It could be close and loving, it could be cold and resentful. They are not going to let us know if the relationship is poor.

However, Dr. Sears shares a practice with his sons, and this is a clear measure of the viability and positive nature of their relationship. They work together and are around each other every day. Their non-verbal message is that of a strong and happy relationship...they don't have to publish anything proclaiming it as such, their actions speak loud and clear. :)

[ArmsOfLove]

I also believe that there are so many dynamics in the parent/child relationship and we can't assume that the outcome is because all of them are good. I mean, if you have a fairly compliant child who gets spanked 5 times and you are a very loving parent you're probably going to have a great relationship and a great adult child. If you have a very spirited child and you spank all the time and you are reserved and withhold affection then you will probably have a bad relationship and problems with your adult child. In between those two are going to be a vast array of possibilities for relationship dynamics and outcomes. That doesn't mean that the children turn out well *because of* spankings and punishment, but *despite* them.

[Sara]

Great point, Crystal!! :tu

[schoolofmom]

That's so true, Crystal. I think Dr. Dobson must have had some compliant kids, because I've heard him say he could count the number of times he spanked them on one hand. I think that's something most of the parents who implement his ideas would be unable to say.

[snlmama]

My parents were huge Dobson followers and I just wanted to point out that in addition to what Crystal said, there is also the issue of problems, insecurities and resentment that remain below the surface, even into adulthood. Just b/c a relationship appears good from the outside doesn't mean it *is* a healthy relationship. Not sure if I'm phrasing that right and I don't have time to list specific examples. Just that appearances can be decieving. Not talking spec. about Dobson's children, but about children raised by his methods.

On the topic of Dobson and babies - I have read a few of his books and most don't really mention much. The only book of his I found at all useful was Bringing up Boys b/c he talks a lot in that about the importance of boys bonding w/ their parents. And he tells a story about how when his daughter had huge crying reaction (but he did say more than "normal separation anxiety, so I wouldn't assume he's anti leaving babies or leaving them to cry) when being left at daycare he took her home and found a way for he and his wife to have a parent at home. Can't remember all the details, but that story touched me and gave me a slightly less negative view of him. :shrug

[Katherine]

Basically just want to second what others have said:

ITA with Crystal. and with this:

there is also the issue of problems, insecurities and resentment that remain below the surface, even into adulthood.

I know LOTS of Dobson families, some whose kids are openly "rebellious" and other whose adults kids APPEAR to still walking the straight and narrow, so to speak, and I can tell you that every punitive family I've known has issues with their adult children. My family included. I love my parents with all my heart, and I think we have a really good relationship, but it definitely has been in *spite* of problems. If we hadn't pushed through and been determined to overcome some of the issues that manifested themselves as dear sis and I grew up, we might not still be close to them. I could give many examples... :bheart The genuine love and committment that we shared as a family (and God's goodness)... had to overcome all the adversarial trends and control issues and wounded spirits. (and that goes both ways, btw... parents who function punitively often find themselves on the receiving end of the hurt once their kids learn to strike back at them effectively) My sis is a very spirited woman and was a very spirited child, and it has been monumentally harder for her to repair the relationship with my parents. She and my Mom were the most "damaged" by it, IMO, and will carry the effects of that throughout their life in the form of a loving, but often strained relationship. I don't want to bad-mouth Mr. Dobson by any means.. I think he is a loving Dad and a well-intentioned man, but I do hold him responsible for teaching things that are in direct opposition to a wealth of child development research and so on... he is teaching things that destroy families in the name of God and the Bible. He gives himself and others "permission" to discount the mountain of evidence that punitive parenting is NOT good for kids by labeling it as secular, worldly, and unBiblical. I desparately want other parents to realize just how damaging his ideas can be. Even if a parent NEVER spanked their child, but followed his *ideas* in other respects, it would still be damaging, b/c of the huge emphasis he puts on power struggles--"winning" the battle with your child. :(

Dobson supports CIO and is against co-sleeping.

I was pretty sure of this, too.. just didn't have anything in writing to confirm it. It goes along with his philosophy. Every difference in opinion is a battle, and the parent MUST win, or they are doomed to a lifetime of being manipulated by their child. :rolleyes Therefore, if your baby cries or your toddler can't settle down, and YOU think he/she *ought* to settle down and go to sleep, it's a battle. War is not pretty.. it's not kind or compassionate or loving... It doesn't stop to listen to the other parties POV... it's brutal and harsh and traumatic. Negotiation has failed. There is no way to be at war with your children and avoid all that trauma.

[Sara]

Dobson (or FOTF) has also purchased Google adwords for "attachment parenting." That way focusonyourchild.com will come up.

Here is an example:
http://www.compleatmother.com/depression.htm

On the side are ad words by Google - notice the top one says "Attachment Parenting" and is actually Dobson's site? This really frustrates me. Is this his quiet backlash against AP? :mad

[schoolofmom]

That is so lame! You know, one of the ladies on the board a while back wrote them about a show in which they dissed co-sleeping, saying that she was for it and it had been really good for the family, etc. They wrote her back a letter saying that it was dangerous and FOTF discouraged the practice. So why would they buy "attachment parenting" adwords? That's kind of sneaky.

[Sara]

Yeah, it is sneaky. I think he is trying to suck unsuspecting parents in. I'm not sure how effective this method is, but it is extremely deceptive, IMO!

[chelsea]

That does seem rather deceitful! It's not much better than the x-rated sites that use names of pop stars to lure in unsuspecting young kids to their sites. I disapprove!

[DogwoodMama]

That is pretty deceitful... I'm surprised the folks at Compleat Mother allow that. :/ Maybe they don't know?

[Sara]

Well, I can't describe exactly how those adwords work, but I know that sites use them to target similar audiences and I think they get revenue from that, but don't have much control over what ends up in the adwords box. Does that make any sense at all? But maybe it would be good for someone to notify them to see if they are aware. Maybe they could make sure that particular ad doesn't show up in their adwords box. :shrug

[Sara]

p.s. It isn't just Compleat Mother, though. There are hundreds of AP sites out there that use adwords that will have that same ad because FOTF has paid for that and strategically placed their ads that way.

[ArmsOfLove]

Well I followed the link and did a search on "Attachment Parenting" and nothing came up for that. There were some hits from an article on Reactive *Attachment* Disorder :rolleyes

And this is from his article on The Overprotected Child Shortly after birth, for example, the mother begins transferring responsibilities from her shoulders to those of her infant. Little by little he learns to sleep through the night, hold his own bottle and reach for what he wants. Later he learns to walk and talk. Gradually, as each new skill is mastered, his mother "frees" herself that much more from his servitude.

http://www.focusonyourchild.com/develop/art1/A0000439.html

[sadie]

I don't understand the point of his article. :shrug Usually he is much more articulate than this.

Is he trying to say that AP is all about smothering and overprotecting your child? Are his examples of the overprotective mother supposed to be refering to an AP mother?

Articles like this make me question whether he really has done any research at all on AP, and is arguing against it from an informed viewpoint. I don't know what kind of parenting he is describing, but it's certainly not AP....which anyone would know if they did a brief, cursory checkup on it. :/ I would respect him a lot more if he actually knew what he was talking about.

[MarynMunchkins]

That was the stupidest article I've read in a long time. :rolleyes

The transfer of responsibility ordinarily runs along smoothly until the child reaches about 18 months of age. At that point, he suddenly realizes two things: (1) Work is definitely an evil to be avoided at all costs. He hates the very thought of it. (2) With every new task he is forced to accept, he loses his momma a little more. Whereas she was his full-time servant before, now she is slipping away. He must learn to pick up his blocks and wash behind his ears.

Yes, my kids hate work - which is why they ask to help me, and enjoying doing tasks with me. :rolleyes They don't like doing things on their own - I don't either. I'd much rather wash dishes while my dh dries. I guess it's mind-boggling that my kids want me to help pick up toys instead of doing it by themselves.

Here's a novel concept - how about not forcing that responsibility onto them when you think they should be able to do it alone, and instead guiding them into, willing to help when necessary. You know, like lying with your child to help them go to sleep instead of leaving them to cry, or nursing them until they self-wean instead of pushing a bottle into their hands. :idea

Man, this is brillant! Maybe because God planned it that way...:think :P

[shilohmm]

Yes, my kids hate work - which is why they ask to help me, and enjoying doing tasks with me.
:rolleyes They don't like doing things on their own - I don't either. I'd much rather wash dishes while my dh dries. I guess it's mind-boggling that my kids want me to help pick up toys instead of doing it by themselves.


My younger kids are the same way - they will run to help me. Unfortunately, I'm enough of an introvert that I would often rather work alone. :/ I have to sort of mentally gear myself up to do work they "help" with. And if I "help" by minutely directing them ("okay, now pick up that green thing by your toe. Now the red one..."), the younger ones (4 year old to 8 year old) think that's fun, too. The older kids get angry when the younger ones made the majority of a common mess they all have to clean up - if I'm there to keep the younger ones moving by giving them VERY specific things to do, then the older ones feel better about things. They still do the most work, but the little ones do "their share."

I also think a lot of parents have reluctant workers because what looks like "ten minutes work" to an adult can seem overwhelming to a kid. I still fight that myself, even though I intellectually know, with years of experience, that I can do some chore in twenty minutes "if I just put my mind to it." I don't know why, but some jobs just seem soooo huge I feel completely swamped by them and spend more time trying to convince myself I can do it than I spend actually doing the job. Some of my kids are like that - I think that's why they work well if I'm there to help break it down into positively minute pieces. My eldest seems to have gotten past that, some, thank goodness. I hope none of them are still struggling with that as adults, but I think because as a child I felt so overwhelmed by work so often that tendency is more ingrained into my personality. :( And Dobson's standards are pretty similar to my parent's standards, so I would hazard a guess some of these "reluctant workers" are really just plain old overwhelmed by what they're being asked to do. They feel completely hopeless and helpless. :cry

Plus my kids have been reluctant to do stuff for all manner of reasons, reasons they don't always tell us right away because they can't explain or are embarrassed by the problem - and the problem can be anything from, "something that scares me is involved" in a two year old to "I hate to be alone" in an eight year old to "the smell of that cleaner makes me nauseated" in an eleven year old. But once we figure it out and put it in words and deal with it, they're back to work again. I think the Dobson approach ends up handicapping kids because the real problem with their work avoidance is never resolved, but they are forced to work anyhow, so they begin to associate work with misery. And then, yeah, of course kids try to avoid work. Who wouldn't?

IMHO, God designed work to be satisfying. I think Dobson's methods can make work profoundly unsatisfying for a lot of kids, so he is in essence training those kids to hate work. :banghead

Sheryl

[chelsea]

Quote:"Gradually, as each new skill is mastered, his mother "frees" herself that much more from his servitude."

If I remember correctly, we are to live a life of servitude just as Jesus did, so we should embrace and not reject serving our children!

[Katherine]

If I remember correctly, we are to live a life of servitude just as Jesus did, so we should embrace and not reject serving our children!

Yep! Why are children always the exception to every relationship-oriented instruction in the Bible? :banghead

Sheryl, I TOTALLY agree with you post (and relate to it,in fact!) :O I really wish parents could see that when they turn a given issue--whether it's sleeping or doing chores or eating--into a battle, they are setting their kids up a lifetime a struggle with that particular issue. :cry

[Hannah Jo]

How about this quote:

At the moment of birth, an infant is completely helpless, and his parents are responsible for meeting his every need. They are his servants, and if they're too slow in meeting his demands, he is equipped with a spine-chilling scream to urge them into action. He carries no obligations whatsoever. He doesn't even have to appreciate their efforts or apologize for getting them up six times in one night.


Can you imagine talking about an elderly grandmother like this? Let me try:

My sick grandmother can't do anything for herself and I have to do every little thing for her. She uses me, and tries to make me feel guilty if I say no to her. I can't believe she doesn't pay me anything for preparing meals for her, or at least give me a nice present or something. I've had to give up so much because of her! She really should apologize for being so inconvenient


How Christlike is this attitude?

[Soliloquy]

Is it just me or does anyone else find it incredibly arrogant to think that we could ever bring a sin nature into submission to *our* authority??? If we can bring their sin nature into submission, why not our own? Why did Jesus need to suffer and die if it's that easy?


That's a very profound thought. I'd never looked at it that way before. Thank you so much for writing that. I can't wait to discuss it with my DH and friends. :tu

[Hermana Linda]

It seems like he does not give his opinion much on parenting during the first year.

I remember way back, when I was preg with my 14 yr old, reading, or hearing him say that one should never pick up a crying baby. :wow That he always waited until his babies took a breath, or paused a bit in their crying, before picking them up. That way, they would not feel that their crying had been rewarded. :rolleyes I thought that was insane advice. My husband and I also thought that his advice on spanking was evil, so we stopped reading and listening to him.

[sadie]

I remember way back, when I was preg with my 14 yr old, reading, or hearing him say that one should never pick up a crying baby. That he always waited until his babies took a breath, or paused a bit in their crying, before picking them up. That way, they would not feel that their crying had been rewarded

Okay, so how exactly is the baby supposed to communicate? Are they magically going to think, "Oh, well since I dont' get a response for crying, I better start politely requesting it in full sentences." :rolleyes :banghead

[Hermana Linda]

Okay, so how exactly is the baby supposed to communicate? Are they magically going to think, "Oh, well since I dont' get a response for crying, I better start politely requesting it in full sentences." :rolleyes :banghead

That's what I was wondering. However, it bears repeating that this is a 15 yr old memory and therefore may not be perfectly correct. I think it was from Dare To Discipline, the only book by him I have read. But I'm not sure. And if so, it was an earlier edition. He may have changed his mind on this. He also may have been talking about older babies, I don't remember for sure. I only can attest to the impression that I came away with and remembered for 15 years.

[sadie]

This advice is also offered by the Pearls. I have a feeling you are remembering correctly. :(

[chelsea]

I remember way back, when I was preg with my 14 yr old, reading, or hearing him say that one should never pick up a crying baby. That he always waited until his babies took a breath, or paused a bit in their crying, before picking them up. That way, they would not feel that their crying had been rewarded

How would we like it if we were thrown into a competely foreign land and everyone there had been taught to ignore and punish us because we didn't know the language or the "proper way" to communicate?!! :hissyfit

[Soliloquy]

I remember way back, when I was preg with my 14 yr old, reading, or hearing him say that one should never pick up a crying baby. :wow That he always waited until his babies took a breath, or paused a bit in their crying, before picking them up. That way, they would not feel that their crying had been rewarded. :rolleyes I thought that was insane advice. My husband and I also thought that his advice on spanking was evil, so we stopped reading and listening to him.


I read this too, but I don't remember in which of his books. I read it years before I had kids, and Dobson was the only author I read on child-rearing at the time, so I know it was Dobson who wrote it. I'm so saddened to say that it made sense to me at the time, maybe because of the way I was raised. It took me a long time to admit that the spankings I received as a child did have a negative affect on me.

[Soliloquy]

Can you imagine talking about an elderly grandmother like this? Let me try:

My sick grandmother can't do anything for herself and I have to do every little thing for her. She uses me, and tries to make me feel guilty if I say no to her. I can't believe she doesn't pay me anything for preparing meals for her, or at least give me a nice present or something. I've had to give up so much because of her! She really should apologize for being so inconvenient


How Christlike is this attitude?


That's an excellent analogy! I've used it a few times, too, especially when my newborn daughter was terrified to be buckled in her carseat and no one understood why we just stopped going places in the car. I asked my mom what she would do if her 91-year-old mother was terrified of the car and screamed every second she was in it . . . it helped her understand. It's so sad, though, that in our society babies are not treated as fully human. If they were, we wouldn't have to make this analogy.