Discipline Procedures for Wed. night Church

[This Busy Mom]

I don't know if our church has a discipline policy in place, but I am seeing that we need one. Any ideas of how to go about it?

I got my guy under control and participating... lol... but we had something happen tonight with another boy with learning disabilities and I wish I would have handled it different. I was slinging the baby, and I knew if I engaged him, I would have ended up bear hugging him then taking him out of the room because he was really angry all through the class, and disruptive. I wish I would have taken the time to try to figure out why he was so upset... but it was probably over the "game" the teacher (i'm just a helper) uses to keep them quiet... I don't think he understood it. She gave them all paper clips and if they caught each other talking while the teacher was talking, then the child that caught the other one talking got all their paper clips. I don't think the teacher thought this through all that well, but she let the one with the most paper clips read a bit out of the Bible for a little skit they put on for another classroom. I also think she's (the teacher) is having a hard time making the class "fun".

I'm thinking I'm going to call the guy in charge of children's church in the morning and talk to him about what happened... by the time class was over the boy was really mad, and it wasn't making sense. He was yelling at my son, and my son said when we got home tonight and I asked him about it that the boy talked, so he got his paperclip. I'm thinking the boy didn't understand the rules of the game and was just hurt that his buddy (my son) took his paperclip from him. I would be really upset if he didn't come to church anymore over this.

I don't know... what could I have done better? Taken him out of the room and validated his feelings? When I talked him out from under the table the one time, I had no idea what he was so upset about.

[Quietspirit]

You are right in that the lead teacher set that child (and likely several others) up for failure. That boy was just the most vocal about it. There were likely several children who went home quietly upset. :(

I would first speak to the teacher, gently, and point out what happened. You two could then brainstorm some proactive (as opposed to reactive) methods of keeping the class under control. Some of that can be handled through teaching style. Always have something happening (no dead time) and be quick to keep them involved. Do quite a few hands-on activities. Even if that means standing to read the Bible. Singing and signing praise songs. Playdo for little hands to use while reading is happening, etc.

I'm not sure of the age of the classmates. So, some of the above ideas are purposefully generic.

As for handling other outbursts, nip them in the bud by taking the upset child out and talking to them. Validate feelings and come up with a positive solution to how they can handle something. With this child, it will be more difficult.

I think the whole situation was caused by that ridiculous paper clip thing :doh

[This Busy Mom]

I think the whole situation was caused by that ridiculous paper clip thing

Me too. I think the other teacher she got it from made it fun... she's a very good teacher (the one that originally used it) and the teacher I'm helping is punitive minded... I've known that for years. She's a homeschooler, too. I don't know what she's doing every week... and truthfully by the time I hit 7pm at night and in a room with a group of 2nd and 3rd graders, my attention span is gone. I haven't called the head of children's church. Dh is yelling at me now to get dressed so we can go shopping, but I think I will do it before I leave.

Anyways, they were 2nd - 3rd grade :)

[ArmsOfLove]

what happened when you called?

[This Busy Mom]

He didn't call me back... I'll see him on Sunday. I think someone needs to call the boy's parent(s). I don't have that information.

Christa

[This Busy Mom]

I let the person in charge of children's church know what happened. He's going to call the boy's mom. I found at least one more person that's aware of the boy's whole situation and is willing to come help with him if need be (I haven't asked her that, but it's his sunday school teacher and she gets upset when the kids pick on him).

[Katherine]

Granted, I'm not a teacher... but I hate games that pit children against one another like that.. monitoring each other's behavior, competing to see who's the "best behaved" . grrrr.. I enjoy appropriate competition, but not in regard to intanglible things like behavior. What a great way to let kids know that they are "good" or "bad" at the hands of their own peers. :rolleyes

I was the "good, responsible" kid in my Christian school class, and I always got left in charge when the teacher went somewhere. It was horrible. I had a moral obligation to report to the teacher who had talked, and was teased and/or resented by the other kids no matter what I did. If I was brutally honest, they argued with me and acted hateful or shunned me. If I cut anyone some slack it was.. "Ewwww.. I thought you were such a good girl.. so-in-so talked and you didn't tell teacher!" etc.

I have no problem with kids being encouraged to help/encourage and even counsel one another under adult supervision, but at the point where they are put in an authority role or given power over each other (like "YOU TALKED! Give me your paper clips!") , that's when I start to have problems with it.

No offense to those who have used this techinique or agree with it, just my personal feelings on the matter.

[ArmsOfLove]

Palil, ITA. I was always singled out for good grades and good behavior and I wasn't doing it to get that attention--so to be called out for it was upsetting and I was treated harshly by classmates :( I'm not big on things that pit kids against each other like that either :(

[This Busy Mom]

No offense to those who have used this techinique or agree with it, just my personal feelings on the matt

I'm not either... it really upsets me. I was one of those good kids gone bad for awhile because I wanted to hang out with kids that accepted me and in order to do that I had to basically flunk a placment test for Jr. High on purpose because they grouped the kids according to abilities. It messed up my high school classes... I didn't have anyone rooting for me.

I didn't realize what she was up to or I would have suggested something else. She doesn't share what she's doing with me for the lesson, just wants me in there for crowd control?? I think this is teaching me a lesson and I'm going to let the children's church people know I will teach the class if/when they need a new person. I've been avoiding it because my SIL was teaching a class, too, and I know she's openly in opposition to my views on discipline. I just don't know how to deal with her at the moment, but she's also not teaching presently.

[Dizzy Blond]

Wow, Christa! Let us know how this is resolved. My dh & I taught Sunday school before dd came and even though I didn't know anything about GBD or AP, and even considered that I would someday spank my own child (thanks to GBD, I have rethought that), I would never have played a game like that. The teacher should have enough paper clips to go around and to give paper clips as a reward, not have one taken away. Sunday school is supposed to be fun, not a chore ... otherwise why go? I felt it was my job to be Jesus to them (as best I could) and their parents job to discipline.

Also, in my Sunday school, the special needs kids have their own teacher that joins their age group or goes and does their own thing, depending on the child & their behavior that day. Just an idea to present to the SS director.

[Oliveshoots]

ooooh what a horrible game! (the paper clips). I personaly believe that it is primarily the adult's responsibility to keep the group managed. THat is alot of pressure on kids to have to be "in charge" of each other's talking. I would imagine some kids (like maybe your son) might feel odd taking something from someone else, but since that is what the "rules" of the game say, he would feel odd not doing what the game requires. Such a bad position to put him in, and then for the poor kid who doesn't understand why his friend is taking his paper clips. I've been working with kids for quite a while, in public/private school, day cares, I was a semi nanny/au pair for a few years, and I have NEVER heard of that game. (Although I will give her points for creativity, and at least she is not "writing names on the board" or putting a chair in the corner.)

Here is what I do on Wednesday nights with my Kids Choir:
I have taught them the SPY rules.
S: show respect
P: participate
Y: you are important

the S rule addresses: not talking while the leader (me) is talking, or while another child is talking; being respectful of church property and the property/person of others; having a worshipful attitude
the P rule addresses: cooperation, getting along, involving each other, caring for each other, giving our best effort, etc.
the Y rule addresses: attendance and self-esteem/confidence in what they are doing

They are to the point now where all I have to do is make little "spy glasses" out of my fingers (you know, circles with your thumb and forefinger), put them on my face, and they all get quiet and listen to me. At the end of the night, I will say "WOW you guys are doing so well with the P rule, because you all learned the song well and were singing your best!" (BTW, I NEVER equate "good singing" with their vocal quality or pitch...although it is encouraged, I equate "good singing" with posture, breathing, effort...things that every kid can do well.) I will also add "we need some work on the S rule because....." and then explain what could have been better about our choir time. And I say it in a general way, so no one child is singled out (usually it is the case that they are ALL hyper and talking at once). But in the case that one child is "out of sorts", I will just talk to them privately about how they could do better, and then sometimes I will talk to their folks the next day by phone, or that night if it is serious enough. I figure, it is not my job to "modify behavior", it is the parents. It is my job to conduct a rehearsal/activity the best I can, and encourage them to absorb as well as they can. Does that make sense?

I have been working with this group of kids for several years now, and they know what my boundaries are. Although they will push those boudnaries around other adults, they are pretty good about it with me. The choir is mostly boys, with just about 3 or 4 girls in regular attendance. So we do have our behavior "challenges" sometimes. ;) "highly spirited" boys is a great way to put it, becuase they are all wonderful kids, with beautiful little personalities. But they are text book "boys".

I have heard people say that I am too "sweet" with the kids, and that they take advantage of me :rolleyes which I don't think is the case, because they know what I expect, and they know exactly what I want them to do. Now when they choose not to do it, I don't think that means they are taking advantage of me. They are just making a choice. Anyway, this could turn into a whole 'nother topic, so I'll stop.

Maybe those ideas will help.

Feel free to use the SPY rules if they will help you. Or share them with the teacher, if she is interested.

Oh one more thought....
Maybe you could help her be more proactive about the talking. it seems almost like she is "expecting" them to misbehave. Maybe encourage ways to prevent it. It's almost like by introducing that game, she is "suggesting" the idea that there might be tons of talking to be done, so get ready to take some paper clips. Sounds like a set-up to me, like another poster said.

AND I think it's a GREAT idea for you to volunteer to teach a class when they are in need. Even if your style is different from your SIL, maybe you will set a precedent and a standard for other teachers to meet, that a successful children's class can occur using POSITIVE non-punitive discipline. What a GBDwitness you could be!