Dd was spanked in MOPS today!

[Mamatoto]

By a male teacher! I am sooo upset. I called the church to let them know what happened but I don't think there is anything else that I can do. :hissyfit I am waiting for a call back from the pastor.

[DogwoodMama]

:eek :mad

I would be so furious if I were you! I hope they deal with this situation appropriately & don't blow you off! Hugs!

How is your dd feeling now, btw?

[Punkie]

Oh my! I'd be so upset! Is that even legal? Did your dd tell you or did they?

[Mama Calidad]

:eek ((((snugglemama and daughter)))) I'm :mad and it's not even my child. Please let us know when you hear back from your pastor. That's just completely beyond acceptable. :hug :hug :hug

[Mamatoto]

I can't find a quote icon...???

Anyway, Punkie, I don't know if it is legal or not but I am guessing it is because it is in a church? Dd told me. I had heard her friend tell her mom someone was spanked in class so I asked dd if she had seen someone get their hiney smacked. She said, yes, it was me! :eek

[Punkie]

(The quote is on the top right of the post.)

I didn't think that anyone could hit your kid, no matter who they are. That's just not right! They couldn't hit YOU just because they're a church, so why is it any different?

I think I would've choked if one of my kids said that happened to them. I think you should get to give that guy a spanking for being out of line :P (J/k of course)

[Mama Calidad]

MOPS would fall under church-based (very) part-time daycare. Here's a link listing the legality of spanking in daycare settings state by state. HTH. :hug
http://www.stophitting.com/laws/stateLegislation.php

[ArmsOfLove]

I don't at all believe this is legal and, tbh, I'd be calling the police and bringing charges of assault if not sexual violation charges. I would be sendng a LOUD AND CLEAR message to that man and that church! Do you know the man? Have you talked to him directly?

[righteous mama]

I would call my local police department and ask them if it is legal for an "employee" of a church to spank your child. I'm almost positive that without parental consent, this is illegal. I think this is shocking! Why would he feel the need to spank your daughter anyway? How about calling you out to deal with her if she is "so bad"? I would call the MOPS coordinator immediately and let her know. Even families that spank would be offended by someone doing it without permission!

((((mama)))) I'm sorry you are dealing with this. I'm so angry for you! :mad

[Maggie]

:mad :mad :mad Unbelievable! I'm so sorry that happened! ((((((snugglemama and dd)))))) I hope that something is done about it and that restrictions are placed on hitting in MOPS and/or that guy gets reprimanded!!!! I think I would call the police and the MOPS coordinator, too, like Marcella suggested.

[godsgracegiven]

I believe it is illegal too. :neutral I am so sorry, I praying something can be done. :hugs

[Epieikeia]

nt

[inesperada]

:hissyfit :mad :mad :td Seriously. I agree with finding out what you can do.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((snugglemama))) )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Mothering by Heart]

I'd be in that man's face immediately. :mad I would definately call the police. Don't let the MOPS people blow you off!

[2sunshines]

Wow, I'm so sorry that this happened.

Please let us know how they respond.

[Mamatoto]

Update...

I talked to the church administrator who tried to tell me what a nice guy this is and how he wouldn't do that. He also said that when confronted the man admitted that he said to dd, "I oughta spank you but I know I am not allowed." He said he did not spank her. I told the church administrator that he DID spank her and that two of the children in the class were saying so. He then said that they needed proceed with contacting children and youth services. Then an elder called me and asked me what I wanted to see as the outcome of this. Then I think I said too much, but I told him that I understand how hard it is in children's ministry and yet you absolutely CANNOT hurt a child. I also told him that we were just coming out of a church situation that was very hurtful to my dd (verbally and emotionally) and that she was just healing from that and that I was very upset to see this happen now in a church. I said that I did not believe this man should be allowed in childcare again and that he should know just how wrong it is that he did this. Now I am sort of questioning the motive of that call...I am feeling sort of lost with this. I think maybe you all are right about calling the police but I don't want to drag dd into a huge thing and I am hoping that them contacting child services might be enough??? What do you think? :shrug :think

[ArmsOfLove]

I think child services is where the police would have directed you--but you might want to contact them also and make sure they are contacted. Unfortunately, they will probably have to interview your dd but you can insist on being present because it's not about you ;)

I'm so SO sorry this happened to her--especially after going through that at your old church :(

[Quietspirit]

How absolutely appalling!!!!! :mad :sick :hissyfit :cry

I am so angry for you and your little girl! Definately contact child services YOURSELF. Don't let the church do it...it sounds, unfortunately, like they will try to "spin" it. :( Or call the police yourself. I know you don't want to put your little one through an ordeal but, like Crystal said, you can be right there with her.

I can't imagine what they church is thinking trying to tell you "oh he's such a nice person, etc etc"! :eek Completely inappropriate! Even proponents of spanking would be appalled that someone spanked your child without parental consent. :neutral

((((((((hugs))))))))) to you and your daughter.

[musicmama]

I am so upset for you, too!!

(((snugglemama))) I would call myself, too. Not only is it completely inappropriate for a male teacher especially, but for anyone else to lay a hand on ANYONE is wrong!! And completely illegal!! I would call the police too. I understand what you are saying about protecting her, too though. But, I think that is protection too.

(((HUGS)))

[SueQ]

Is that even legal?
Unfortunately it is in some states. There was an editorial in today's paper about spanking in schools and that it is still legal in my state, PA. I am assuming churches would fall into that category. If it is illegal in schools would it be illegal in churches, too or are private organizations exempt?

Oh, while don't they just outlaw spanking as physical/sexual abuse? It would make life so much easier! :hug

[musicmama]

There's something else that bothered me, I was thinking about this on the way to work this morning. (waaaah, where's the quote button?!?)

"He also said that when confronted the man admitted that he said to dd, "I oughta spank you but I know I am not allowed." He said he did not spank her."

So, somehow it's BETTER that he just threatened her, IF he didn't spank her. I don't think a threat is any less abusive than actually doing it, personally.

[ArmsOfLove]

It also struck me that whether he said that to them, or they were just saying it to you, it is an admission that they all know this isn't allowed.

As for in schools, etc . . . if you enroll your child somewhere that is legally allowed to spank they have to make you aware of it and by enrolling you agree to this possibility, or put a letter of objection in your child's file. MOPS is not at all in the same category--it's a voluntary program that offers child care. It's not a preschool or a church nursery, it's an entirely different thing.

[schoolofmom]

Oh, I am so :mad ::cry :mad for you and your poor dd! I don't think you said too much at all. I second (or third) the advice about calling CPS yourself. That's so completely over the line that it's unbelievable.

[Mamatoto]

Wow, this has just been completely crazy.

Okay, so later on that night after dh was talking to dd about the man hitting her, she told us that he brought a child who was crying in front of the class and called her a crybaby and laughed at her and had the rest of the class laugh, too. :sick

So, I called the church in the morning. There was a meeting between the church admin, and two of the elders and they put me on speaker phone. They told me that they called child services and were waiting for a call back from the county that morning. He gave me the name and number of the place they called so that I could call and check on it. I did and talked to the intake worker. Can I say emotionless?? :banghead She was a brickwall. Anyway, she called me back later that day and told me that she had talked to the church and her supervisor and that they will not be investigating because there was no grounds for physical abuse. She also told me that the man was not admitting it and perhaps my dd was distressed because I had left her there. She said that maybe she had behavior problems since this had happened verbally at our old church. I explained the situation there and told her that dd was yelled at for not being able to sit for 45 minutes in sunday school and it was not a behavior issue. I was very very very upset after the phone call with children and youth. So, I called the church and left a message for the church admin or elder to call me back.

In the meantime, I talked with two of my friends whose children were there. The first one had asked her child if anyone had their hineys hit in class and she said yes and said my dd's name after asked if it was her or another child. The second child, told her mom the exact same story that my dd did in how she was hit, and then she also told her mom that another girl had gotten a spanking in the bathroom. Apparently she said there was some sort of fight between the female teacher and the little girl and it resulted in the girl being spanked. We do not know who this child was, which would be really helpful! So my friend talked to the church admin and told him what I just wrote. Now, I am waiting to hear from someone today about how they will proceed from here.

Children and youth told me that in a church nursery setting the church needs to set the policy and that I should request a copy of their rules in regard to discipline. The church told them and me that there is a zero tolerance rule to physical discipline. So, I have no idea where this is going to go. Children and youth don't want to get involved and since there is no physical evidence my hands are tied as to where to go next. I do think the church is being very serious and wants to deal with this very well, fortunately.

Before you leave your children at church, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ask for a copy of their discipline policy. I am going to email my regular church right now about this.
:cry

[Quietspirit]

I am so sad for your daughter and the other children in that class :cry

I am proud of you for standing up for your daughter and the other children as well! :hug

[ArmsOfLove]

:clap good for you for following up and keep going momma! I would keep after them until you get some resolution to this. I'm so :mad for your dd and especially if another child was spanked in the bathrom :eek :eek What is going on there????? Who are these people?

[cklewis]

This is so awful. I'm so sorry. :hug I'm sorry that you seem to be getting NO answers.

I am NO expert on this, but it seems pretty obvious to me that this is NOT legal in any sense because every church I know (and I know too many) who do such things have to get parental consent. You all see that story I posted about a church/school in my "circle" that's being sued for this very thing? Grrrrr. . . .

:hug

C

[ArmsOfLove]

I'm still thinking that a call to the police might net some assault charges even if child abuse statutes don't apply. You could definately sue--but I wouldn't want to drag a fellow believer or a church into court unless there was no other option for resolution (and my goal would be making sure that it didn't happen to anyone else's child). But it sounds like they have a policy against it and want to make sure it doesn't happen again. I hope they do follow up.

[Piper2]

Wow, that whole situation just makes me :mad But at least your seems to want to do something about it, even if child services won't.

The last time we tried Kevin in his "regular" Sunday School class, he told me later that his teacher asked him if he wanted to go to the "baby class" because he was crying for us. Did I mention it was the LAST time he was in that class? :rolleyes

[Katherine]

I told dh about your situation, and said "just imagine how you would feel if an adult man you didn't know (at church) took your little girl into the bathroom and spanked her!" (I think it was the other little girl who was taken in the bathroom, right?)

He responded, "I'd say, 'C'mon man, you're going to the bathroom with ME!" :lol

So sorry this has happened. Hope it will resolve in the best possible way for you and dd.

[ArmsOfLove]

Yes--I'm curious what your dh is saying about all of this. I'd have to hold my dh back to not kick the other guy's you-know-what :wow

:hissyfit <--- that would be dh, or that would -------> :sa

[Mamatoto]

My dh was upset but he is so calm and laid back by nature. :rolleyes He was more concerned that dd was okay and talking through it with her. I am thinking I need to call the church again to see what is happening because I haven't heard from them in two days.

[Charlie U]

That is just so terrible. I hope the church is willing to take care of this properly. Spanking just should not be allowed. (hugs)

[greenemama]

outrageous, :mad

[GodisGood]

Call the MOPS director ASAP. If that doesn't work than call the area director. EVERYONE involved needs to know about this. Your Pastor is hosting the MOPS program so he has a right to know, however, the directory is the one overseeing the hiring of MOPS

[Teribear]

I am SO sorry this happened to your DD. I had this happen to mine in nursery once...I SAW it happen and my girlfriend who was with me had to physically restrain me. I was arriving to pick DD up and she was getting her diaper changed which she hated and the woman popped her on her bare behind. DD was about 2 but spoke really early and she was utterly indignant. She told the woman "We DON'T hit. Hitting hurts!" The woman tried to claim that she hadn't hit her...but as I said I saw what happened. I told her that if she EVER laid a hand on my child again she'd be facing an assault charge. She was dismissed from the nursery shortly after that but I always made sure after that to specifically tell the nursery workers, "I know that it is the policy of the church that no child is to be corporally disciplined. However I had an experience where that policy was not followed and I want to make it very clear that if it is not followed with my child I will prosecute." It never happened ageain. Our church takes the safety of children very seriously and what happened truly was an abberation. But I remember the utter outrage and sense of helplessness. Validate your child's feelings and let her see and hear you setting that boundary when you feel safe enough to leave her again. If the church doesn't take appropriate action by all means follow up with every venue possible. Unfortunately when they are so small its difficult to get legal action taken. The word of an adult vs the word of a child is a tough one to prove. Big hugs. I feel your frustration.

[iplsmama]

Oh I hope you get a good resolution!! I would be angry too :sa

[ArmsOfLove]

wow, Terri, how awful for dd but GOOD FOR YOU! :tu what an advocate you were for your child :D :highfive

[MamaKanga]

snugglemama, I am so sorry for what happened. I encourage you to follow up with social services by speaking to a supervisor and DEMANDING an investigation. I would also file a formal complaint with the police department, and I would get advice from an attorney regarding a civil suit. What this man did was ABUSE. It's no different than if he had hit YOU. Think about it that way.

As a MOPS Coordinator, I am also outraged, and I encourage you to contact MOPS International and file a complaint with them. Because MOPS groups are under the authority of the chartering ministry, there is probably little MI can do. However, I do believe they should be made aware of the situation.

Hugs to you and your sweet DD! I am so sorry this happened!!!

[erinee]

I've been reading this thread and unable to post until now. I'm so sorry this happened! :mad :cry2 :td

I just wanted to give you a :hug

[TraceMama]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I am outraged with you! If anyone ever spanked ds, they had better watch out......the mother bear tendency rears its protective head! :mad I hope and pray that the pastor responds and that if necessary the legal authorities will be contacted.

:hug

-- Tracey

[MomTo7]

I :hissyfit :hissyfit :hissyfit

What else can I say. I hope you get somewhere with this.

Poor baby girl! :cry

[Tamara]

Ooooh, I'm so angry! :mad Hoping you find a resolution you have peace about.

[LadyBird]

I wouldn't let this go. Sounds like the church is trying to sweep this under the carpet and make you feel like you have no recourse. I would let them know directly that if they don't do a proper investigation, and reach a satisfactory solution with you over this that you will let your attorney contact them and handle it, and that you have already contacted him. I would also tell them you have no problem taking this to the press if they feel the need to ignore you on this issue. Bring out the big guns, and also send this this in writing. Anything in black and white on paper makes this all very real for them and they can't ignore that. Send the letter certified so they have to sign for it. That will get there attention! God bless and I am so sorry you have had to go through this and hope your daughter isn't traumatized anymore. :hug

[MamaBeth]

Wow! I'd be about beside myself with anger at someone laying a hand on my child without my permission!

[MarynMunchkins]

:eek And he mananged to survive it, huh? ;)

:hug I'm so sorry for both of you! Let us know how it is resolved.

[rosesnsnails]

This makes me so :mad :mad :mad :mad :mad

I hope action is taken on this quickly!!!!!!!

[ChristmasGirl]

Snugglemama,

I'm so sorry this happened :hug I am a teacher for MOPS and that would be totally unacceptable :mad
Do you know if there was another teacher in the room when this happened? We try to make sure that there are at least 2 teachers at all times to prevent this sort of thing from happening. At the very least, you could suggest that they make it policy to have more than one teacher for accountability's sake.

Praying for strength for you, and that this will be resolved in a way that will bring peace to you and prevent this from ever happening again. :pray

[boonpnutsmom]

I'm so sorry that somebody would do this, and I hope you can find some answers. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v109/boonpnutsmom/hanginx.gif

[believer]

It is also sad that the man lied about it. Pray for him that his conscience would be bothered. In our church they always have 2 workers with the children. Was this man alone with them then? I don't think that is a good idea anyway.

[ShowersofBlessings]

:hugs It's sad that we would have to tell adults not to hit our dc, especially when it is against the law. That is really outrageous!! It should be assumed that we don't hit unless the parent gives instructions otherwise........

[Miss Priss]

:hissyfit :td :cry
I would be so upset, too.
I hope you get it resolved. Your poor dd... how is she feeling about it?

[TestifyToLove]

Gosh, I flipped a gasket the time I discovered the nursery worker had put my 14 monther in time-out without even bothering to come get me to discipline her. I would probably go off and be a very poor model of Christianity if someone at church ever dared to spank my children. I'm so sorry. I'm sure its got to be SO frustrating for you right now.

[allisonintx]

Does your mops have a list of policies for the childcare they provide that includes disciplinary action? I would definately be wanting a copy of that and a serious chat with everyone involved in the leadership of the childcare portion of the MOPS chapter.

FWIW, I don't know many moms who have alternative views on much anything who are able to stay with MOPS for long. That's sad, because so many moms would benefit from the community of other moms.

[TestifyToLove]

I completely agree with the comment about struggling to stay in MOPS as an alternative mother. I avoided MOPS for years because the groups in my area would not allow older children to remain present with parents, and I had 2 children who refused to be left. I finally joined a group...and well it didn't fit me so well. It was lots of arts and crafts and that's just not me. I did stay for the full year though, because that group allowed mothers to bring ANY children into the room with them if they wanted. I typically had at least one child with me, and sometimes more.

The only mother's group I felt really comfy at was LLLI, and well now that my youngest nurser is 30 months, I feel kind of awkward considering attending meetings again.

[at home momma]

this would DEFINITELY make me angry. even most spankers i know would be furious. and he apparently humilitated another child? in front of everyone? i worked in daycare for a bit, and one teacher would do this to a child. the child was a definite handful, pretty spoiled by her parents, and the worker couldn't make her obey, so she would have all the children point at her and laugh while the child was in time out. i was only 18, and chicken to say anything, so i let it go. i wish i had pulled her mom aside and said something now.

this is why i refuse to do bible studies/MOPS/etc . i can't risk leaving my kids with others. you just don't know how they will treat your child.

love at home momma

[mrsramjet]

hi there,
i've been following this, while waiting to be cleared to post again.

what shocked me the most is how they are putting the guilt on to you!. "he's a nice guy" well maybe to other adults he is, but what does that have to do with this?
and why should he be let off the hook for being a 'nice guy' when your dd wasn't for being a 'nice kid'?

i'm sure he had no idea of the implications of what he was doing, but the church should jolly well stand up and take responsibility for putting him there unprepared, unsupported, unimformed or whatever.

it's typical of a situation like this for them to try and transfer the guilt on to you about what you may be doing to this guy, instead of taking the responsibility upon themselves as the covering and leadership behind the whole thing.

(phew! i've been itching to say that!)

anyway hope that you guys are standing strong.
whatever you plan to do - whether it be asking for a conferencet him and his leadership to show him exactly the impact of his actions, or take it the 'authorities' - i pray that you are kept safe and well and that your dd remains protected and loved also, and not scarred in any way.

[Radosny Matka]

Woah!!!!!!! I'm sooo sorry. Please keep us updated!

[Vipers_Princess]

I too would have went flat off. Then again, I did just leave our church partly because of the fact that they were allowing the sunday school superintendent's grandchildren to make fun of my six y/o and her special needs, and the fact they called her a liar to her face despite the fact I and two others heard the kids call my daughter an 'idiot retard'... :mad

File civil charges if you have to. Make a log of every person you talk to, parents, church officials, the whole nine yards. And get a hard copy of the MOPS policies for their daycare workers.

[DebraBaker]

I would be livid to say the least.

People seem to know not to mess with me, however :think

db

[Sandy]

I'm so sorry this happened to your child, and I pray that you will find someone in the church or MOPS that understands how very inappropriate this is!

Even people I know who spank don't want others to spank their kids...and certainly not without permission.

I'd be outraged...and I don't think I'd want to go back to MOPS!

[Happy Mom]

oh, this makes me crazy for you and your dd!!!

I left a church once because they said "I wish we could go back to using the ruler like we used to!"
Unfortunately, not all churches are as open about their opinions! They had no right to do this to your dd and shame on them for blaming her considering past experience!

Many hugs to you and your sweet dd today, Mama!! :hissyfit

[Heather]

I'm so sorry you are going through this... HUGS to you and your DD!!! :cookie

[CelticJourney]

You can go to the police and have a report written. Even if nothing comes of it (which is probably the case), there is a record of your complaint so if it happens again there is a history and the church will know you mean business. In the current climate, there is nothing a church fears more than legal action. Mabye an investigator will show up at the church office and make it clear this is not to be taken lightly.

Then you can keep your dd with you at every service and function and when asked why, you tell them exactly why.

I am so sorry.